Why is Hell permanent?

[Sophrosyne]

In my belief system; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are among those who are saved. They inherit eternal life.

You are now at step one. On one level God considers those who are unsaved as those who inherit eternal life and those who are not as DEAD even though they STILL EXIST.

 

[dollarsbill]

Due to the everchanging nature of language, the KJV is misleading on John 5:29 - "the resurrection of damnation." The greek is εἰς ἀνάστασιν κρίσεως into a resurrection of judgment. Also, please consider that this says that those who have done good will go into the resurrection of life. Those who commit evil will also go into the resurrection of life, in order to be tormented for all eternity? The wages of sin is death, those that are go to the resurrection of judgment will perish. they die the second death.

And this has been the basic argument against the eternal Hell fire. Those against it prefer their own personal translations over our MANY English Bibles that have been around many years and have been found to be quite consistent.

 

[dollarsbill]

There are two types of "dead" in this verse. The man was given a choice to follow Jesus or bury his father and to choose "NOT" Jesus at that time meant rejecting Jesus.

 

[Sadalmelik]

Death that is not 'physical' death is taught throughout the Bible. There are several instances in OT and NT.

Yeah, 'spiritual death', not saved.

If you are referring to I Tim 5:6 you are quite wrong. There are several throughout the Bible.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (NASB)
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

actually if you read in context, it says, no more like it, when it is referring to hell. please go back and read what it actually says.

 

[Timothew]

And this has been the basic argument against the eternal Hell fire. Those against it prefer their own personal translations over our MANY English Bibles that have been around many years and have been found to be quite consistent.

I noticed that you selected the KJV for your quote. Is there any particular reason why? Check this out!
NIV: will rise to be condemned
NLT: rise to experience judgment
ESV: to the resurrection of judgment
NASB: to a resurrection of judgment

So, it is not my "personal translation", it is the result of reading the original greek and comparing many different translations to get at the meaning of the original. The KJV is not the original bible, it is one translation of the original bible. But certainly you are able to check for yourself. Look up the meaning of κρίσεως in any greek-english dictionary.

You have a misunderstanding of our position if you believe it is merely due to us preferring our "own personal translations." The bible does not support eternal tormentalism in any language. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The penalty to be paid is eternal destruction, not eternal torment.

 

[dollarsbill]

actually if you read in context, it says, no more like it, when it is referring to hell. please go back and read what it actually says.

All of the 'spiritually dead' are headed for Hell.

 

[Timothew]

You are now at step one. On one level God considers those who are unsaved as those who inherit eternal life and those who are not as DEAD even though they STILL EXIST.

Do you really believe that God considers those who are unsaved as those who inherit eternal life? I can't understand what you are saying. It looks as if you are saying there is no difference between the saved and the unsaved. Can you rephrase this?

 

[Timothew]

All of the 'spiritually dead' are headed for Hell.

Can you give the bible reference for this?

 

[dollarsbill]

I noticed that you selected the KJV for your quote. Is there any particular reason why?

It's a little more descriptive.

Check this out!
NIV: will rise to be condemned
NLT: rise to experience judgment
ESV: to the resurrection of judgment
NASB: to a resurrection of judgment

All meaning the same. CONDEMNED.

So, it is not my "personal translation", it is the result of reading the original greek and comparing many different translations to get at the meaning of the original.

Yeah, that's what I said, YOUR personal translation.

The KJV is not the original bible, it is one translation of the original bible. But certainly you are able to check for yourself. Look up the meaning of κρίσεως in any greek-english dictionary.

I never said any such thing.

You have a misunderstanding of our position if you believe it is merely due to us preferring our "own personal translations." The bible does not support eternal tormentalism in any language. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The penalty to be paid is eternal destruction, not eternal torment.

I think I have it figured pretty accurately. It is indeed YOUR personal translations you use to 'disprove' nearly all of our English Bibles. That's the only way the eternal Hell fire can be disproved.

 

[dollarsbill]

Can you give the bible reference for this?

For what?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Do you really believe that God considers those who are unsaved as those who inherit eternal life? I can't understand what you are saying. It looks as if you are saying there is no difference between the saved and the unsaved. Can you rephrase this?

I'm saying that God is the God of the future seeing beyond this life even unto judgment such that he knows who is going to be saved or not in the end. God relates to those who are spiritually disconnected (or unsaved) as dead in some cases it may not be a verdict of their final destination while in other cases it is but nevertheless one is dead to God because of sin because we are in a state of rejection unto him. If God is "life" then rejecting him puts you in the category of "not life" or death.... and you are to him dead without him.

 

[Timothew]

All meaning the same. CONDEMNED.

I agree, condemned. They rise to be judged and are condemned to death.

I never said any such thing.

I never said that you said any such thing.
I just asked you to look up the word yourself if you don't want to take my word for it.

I think I have it figured pretty accurately. It is indeed YOUR personal translations you use to 'disprove' nearly all of our English Bibles. That's the only way the eternal Hell fire can be disproved.

No, Eternal Tormentalism can be disproved quite easily by merely reading the bible. Psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

From this, I deduce that the wicked will perish. This is not difficult, it is what the bible directly states. I don't twist this around to somehow mean that the wicked will not perish but will remain alive forever being tortured in hell.

 

[Timothew]

I'm saying that God is the God of the future seeing beyond this life even unto judgment such that he knows who is going to be saved or not in the end. God relates to those who are spiritually disconnected (or unsaved) as dead in some cases it may not be a verdict of their final destination while in other cases it is but nevertheless one is dead to God because of sin because we are in a state of rejection unto him. If God is "life" then rejecting him puts you in the category of "not life" or death.... and you are to him dead without him.

Okay, then I agree with you. (I think. No offense but, you are really hard to understand.) Those who reject God are put into the category of "not life", they perish. They are not kept alive forever being tormented in hell.

 

[Timothew]

For what?

Can you tell me where the bible says this?

All of the 'spiritually dead' are headed for Hell.

 

[dollarsbill]

I agree, condemned. They rise to be judged and are condemned to death.

But not extinction.

No, Eternal Tormentalism can be disproved quite easily by merely reading the bible. Psalm 37:20 But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

You really should stick with the NT on this. It's MUCH more informative. Why would you go to the OT to disprove perfectly clear NT doctrine?

From this, I deduce that the wicked will perish. This is not difficult, it is what the bible directly states. I don't twist this around to somehow mean that the wicked will not perish but will remain alive forever being tortured in hell.

Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending. 'Eternal' being the exact same word.

 

[dollarsbill]

Can you tell me where the bible says this?

Simple. Those who are dead and alive, as stated many times in the Bible, are not God's people. Though some will certainly become God's people before they die physically.

 

[Timothew]

But not extinction.

What? I never said extinction. The regular "death" will do! Meaning "cease to exist."

You really should stick with the NT on this. It's MUCH more informative. Why would you go to the OT to disprove perfectly clear NT doctrine?

OT or NT, whichever. I quoted Psalms because it was fresh in my memory.
Eternal Tormentalism is not "perfectly clear NT doctrine." But if you only want NT proof, I can give you that. (I suppose that if I had given you a NT proof, you would have asked for OT proof.)

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These pay the penalty of eternal destruction.
John 3:16 whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There are many more verses that disprove Eternal Tormentalism, in both testaments of the Bible. I can show you more of them if you wish.

Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending.

I agree, the punishment is NEVER ending. The punishment is death, and is never ending. Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death.

 

[Timothew]

Simple. Those who are dead and alive, as stated many times in the Bible, are not God's people. Though some will certainly become God's people before they die physically.

No, I said "can you tell me where the bible says this?"
Please direct me to the chapter and verse that says "All of the 'spiritually dead' are headed for Hell."

 

[Sophrosyne]

Okay, then I agree with you. (I think. No offense but, you are really hard to understand.) Those who reject God are put into the category of "not life", they perish. They are not kept alive forever being tormented in hell.

I think your problem with understanding me is related to the people you are reading that support your doctrinal view. They tend to avoid spiritual death on the level that would put in question other meanings of the word "death" that would add more information as to why hell exists. If one limits the definition of death to but two instances in scripture then it makes it a lot easier to say.. the flesh dies then the spirit dies. But if one has more definitions of death then verses used to equate the spirit being destroyed end up being incorrect because a definition of death used is equated wrongly. The one definition of death avoided by your group is spiritual separation from God. By throwing away this definition of death, hell then has no meaning because it IS spiritual separation from God.

 

[dollarsbill]

No, I said "can you tell me where the bible says this?"
Please direct me to the chapter and verse that says "All of the 'spiritually dead' are headed for Hell."

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.