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Why I can't accept Christianity

Kim7229

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If true, then those are definitely some legitimate gripes to be laid at the foot of the entry way door of Jesus. But, may I ask, how did you arrive at these four conclusions? What books, youtube videos, or speakers did you hear that most prompted you to settle at these four ultimate reality check points?

Thanks for sharing, Kim! :cool:
There are lots of things which helped me arrive at those conclusions. It was not one single thing. Among them were the problem of evil, the problem of omniscience and that the actions of Christians didn't line up with their stated beliefs (e.g. going to great lengths to prolong their temporal life while saying that their eternal life is a better place). Here are some links which highlight these.

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Kim7229

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Hi Kim,
Nice to meet you. I am new as well. And good for you for using logic, the key to identifying the error in the doctrines of religious Christianity. Mythology indicates something that is imaginary; not real. The Old Testament is a history of the children of Israel. They were real, "chosen" to teach us about ourselves, as the Bible takes place within us.

1) Some contradictions are due to our lack of understanding. Others (e.g., those of the New Testament) are quite valid, and for good reason. 2) The stories involving slaughter and murder have important symbolic meaning, so that we may understand the spiritual truths behind them, understanding what has caused us to commit these acts, spiritually, from within our own heart. When you understand the symbolism, it opens up a whole new level of understanding! 3) if you meant omniscient, that pertains to having an infinite (vast, immense) awareness of ourselves, which is the divine purpose of the Bible. Omnipotent is the point at which we are solely influence by a power that is positive and constructive. Omnibenevolence is the result of the other two in this divine triad. To reach this spiritual state requires a willingness to understand ourselves, and complete the spiritual (internal) works through which we come to perfect love from within our own heart. 4) This is the humiliating spirit of religion.

You are in a good place. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
While the authors of the Bible may not have meant for it to be meant that God can do anything (e.g. prevent a mass murderer from killing people) or know everything (e.g. knows that the murderer is about to kill a bunch of people or that a typhoon is about to wipe out 10,000 people), almost any Christian you ask will say God is capable of doing these things and does know these things. I saw the logical holes and began asking Christians how they reconciled the problem of evil and the problem of free will and not a single one said anything along the lines of, "well God doesn't really know these things" or "God isn't really capable of preventing those things". Could there be a disconnect between what the Bible is meant to convey and what typical Christians are saying?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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When you say 'Creator', do you mean the most direct creator (e.g. my parents) or the most indirect creator (e.g. A was created by B, B was created by C, C was created by D and we can't go back beyond D, so in this case it would be D)?

How can one have a relationship with something they don't believe to exist? Have you ever had a relationship with something you didn't believe to exist?

Because you do not believe it exists, does not mean it does not exist.

Our Creator calls Himself "I AM". He revealed Himself to a people and called them Israel. Through Israel God came as flesh into the world so that the whole world may know Him and have a personal relationship with Him through His Holy Spirit.

You are not alone in not believing this at all however before you throw the towel in, you may want to consider searching out whether or not you are right.

Blessings
 
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Kim7229

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Thanks for the comments. I've accepted this explanation of God and evil by Gordon Clark for some time now. (He taught philosophy at Butler University in Indianapolis and authored several books referring to the subject.)

"How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?" If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil. If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists. It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

Clark stated that, "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."

This has bearing on our understanding of "free will", sin and punishment, and many other passages in scripture revealing God's hatred of sinners and his love and mercy on those whom he chooses to save from among them.
What you're doing here is yet another thing which has contributed to me drifting away from Christianity. I asked a very straightforward binary question and instead of answering it, you deflected such that I can't see what point you're trying to make. This type of behavior (you're by far not the only one) caused me to think that Christians were hiding something or weren't as confident about their belief as they said they were.

I've learned over the years, that the best type of communication when it comes to answering questions in which you have commentary is to put the answer at the beginning of the response and follow with your commentary or further thoughts. So I'll ask again.

If God is good, then he must either (A) not know about evil or (B) must not be able to do anything about evil. If God is good, then which of those two do you think is more likely to be the case? What would you say - would it be A, B or both A and B?
 
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Kim7229

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Evil grows in cracks and holes and lives in people's minds.
What's your definition of evil?
For the purposes of my posts, evil means things like genocide, slaughter of innocent people, mass shootings, natural disasters in which thousands of people die, babies getting cancer, etc.
 
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Dave L

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What you're doing here is yet another thing which has contributed to me drifting away from Christianity. I asked a very straightforward binary question and instead of answering it, you deflected such that I can't see what point you're trying to make. This type of behavior (you're by far not the only one) caused me to think that Christians were hiding something or weren't as confident about their belief as they said they were.

I've learned over the years, that the best type of communication when it comes to answering questions in which you have commentary is to put the answer at the beginning of the response and follow with your commentary or further thoughts. So I'll ask again.

If God is good, then he must either (A) not know about evil or (B) must not be able to do anything about evil. If God is good, then which of those two do you think is more likely to be the case? What would you say - would it be A, B or both A and B?
This is exactly the problem of evil I solved for you.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There are lots of things which helped me arrive at those conclusions. It was not one single thing. Among them were the problem of evil, the problem of omniscience and that the actions of Christians didn't line up with their stated beliefs (e.g. going to great lengths to prolong their temporal life while saying that their eternal life is a better place). Here are some links which highlight these.

Invisible Pink Unicorn
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Ok. The video definitely presents some legitimate sticking points, and I can see why you feel as you do and why you have honestly arrived at the conclusions you have.

As a theist with a [modest] degree in Philosophy, I don't think all of the points in the video are completely and utterly insurmountable, but being that I'm not here to debate you, I'll just keep things open for discussion as far as you want to do so. I'm mainly here to listen to you share your feelings about your struggle(s) with the Christian faith, and you've given me a taste of the arguments which have brought about your own struggles. That is commendable, and I thank you.

And so, what would you like to do here in the process of sharing your struggles, Kim? :cool:
 
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Serving Zion

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Could there be a disconnect between what the Bible is meant to convey and what typical Christians are saying?
There can be no question about it. We have a language barrier for starters, plus a plethora of false teachings amidst us. Those who believe false teachings are not seeing clearly what the scriptures say, and if the translator's themselves have not been seeing clearly what the scriptures say, then those reading their interpretation are twice stumbled (consider Luke 6:39, Luke 6:42 and Matthew 6:22-23).

Can you tell us what you are hoping to achieve with this thread?
 
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Kim7229

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Because you do not believe it exists, does not mean it does not exist.
Agreed. Likewise, if one believes something exists doesn't mean it does exist.

Our Creator calls Himself "I AM".
How do you know that?

He revealed Himself to a people and called them Israel.
How did these people verify that what revealed itself to them was really a god?

Through Israel God came as flesh into the world so that the whole world may know Him and have a personal relationship with Him through His Holy Spirit.
How did anyone go about verifying that the flesh which came into this world was really part of God?
Why did God need to send Jesus to to humanity for this purpose when he could have done it himself?

You are not alone in not believing this at all however before you throw the towel in, you may want to consider searching out whether or not you are right.
I can't be 100% sure if I'm right, but the available evidence and the quality of it points to most of the claims of Christianity to not be reflective of the truth.
 
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Kim7229

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And so, what would you like to do here in the process of sharing your struggles, Kim? :cool:
To share and discuss.
Also to help understand some of the mistakes Christianity makes such that myself and others run away from their belief system.
To better understand why some people drop their belief upon coming across logical inconsistencies while others either don't or refuse to listen to the logical inconsistencies.
There are other things.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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To share and discuss.
Also to help understand some of the mistakes Christianity makes such that myself and others run away from their belief system.
You're definitely correct to imply that Christians have made mistakes concerning the ways in which some attempts have been made to "explain" the nature of the Christian faith. So, you're right on that. However, I'd like to suggest that when you say "mistakes Christianity makes," it kind of sounds like Christianity is being made out to be some kind of monolithic structure of thought and that there is only one method, one stance, one praxis by which to grapple philosophically with the myriad of ethical issues that inhere to the reality that we're all trying to live in. Could it be that some of the way in which you conceptualize the 'failures' of the Christian faith have come about because you've only been involved with certain strains or certain denominations of Christians?

To better understand why some people drop their belief upon coming across logical inconsistencies while others either don't or refuse to listen to the logical inconsistencies.
I agree that stumbling across what seem to be logical inconsistencies in Christianity is (or can be) a substantive reason to want to turn away from Christianity. The only thing is, it's one thing to say that logical inconsistencies have been spotted, but it's quite another to actually cite for others the forms of logic, as well as the various praxes by which any one of us uses, to show that logic of some sort has been utilized so as to show that Christianity, as it 'really' is, is indeed faulty.

But, again, I'm not here to debate, so I'm simply offering some mediating factors to think about in the process of discussing your struggles----very legitimate struggles, at that!

There are other things.
What other things might there be? I'm just asking because there are certain rules in this "Struggles" section of CF that will prevent us from discussing some issues more explicitly or in-depth; in fact, there are some purposes you have that may need to be brought up instead in areas like the Ethics/Morality section or, more specifically, in the Christian Apologetics section.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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If God is good, then he must either (A) not know about evil or (B) must not be able to do anything about evil. If God is good, then which of those two do you think is more likely to be the case? What would you say - would it be A, B or both A and B?

May I answer?.....

The topic of evil is the first thing that comes up when people decide that God does not exist. After all He claims to be the purest form of perfection right? So why is our world so messed up !

To your first question, God (A) "must not know evil", NO he does know evil just as we ourselves know evil. We know the difference between good and evil and so does God.

To your second question, (B) "must not be able to do anything about it", NO,God can change the course of any event whether good or evil. The important fact here is God gave us "free will" allowing us to choose between good and evil.
 
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Kim7229

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Hi Kim, first off, WELCOME TO CF :wave:

If you wouldn't mind, please give us a couple of examples of the Biblical "contradictions" that you are referring to so that we can see them for ourselves? (I've found a number of "apparent" contradictions in the Bible, especially at first blush, but I've never found any actual contradictions in the OT or in the New)

It would be easier for me to just direct you to this site.
Bible Inconsistencies - Bible Contradictions


As to your second point above, where do you believe that the Bible "advocates" for the killing of innocents (well, except for Jesus, that is)?
You may want to read these sites
Examples of God personally killing people - RationalWiki
Murder in the Bible – Evil Bible .com

Also, we can talk more about the Lord's attributes if you'd like to, but here's something to consider in the meantime, can you imagine what God would be like if He was just like us :eek: (IOW, not omnipotent, not omniscient, and not omnipresent)?
Yes I can. That would be a different type of god than the type I was told about.

One of the big reasons that I finally decided to trust Him/surrender the reins of my life to Him and become a Christian was because of those attributes of His, because I realized that He could see the big picture about my present and my future life that I could not, and because I knew I could trust all of the wondrous promises that He made to us (~because~ He is all-powerful, all-knowing, present everywhere and at every moment in time, and eternal, and as such, knows the end of everything from the very beginning).
Then how do you reconcile the fact that God doesn't prevent cancer stricken babies from getting cancer?

The fact that He proved how much He loves and cares for us by sending His Son here to die for us and save us played a big part in my decision as well, of course :)
How do you know that God sent Jesus to die for us?

Finally, while Mafia bosses may send their sons out to kill people, they'd never send their sons to die in their victims places and save them instead.
It wouldn't be a sacrifice if the son were to be only temporarily dead than if he were permanently dead. So what you're saying is somewhat of a false analogy.

Also, when have you ever heard of Mafia bosses warning people about the age to come, and what eternity will be like for them apart from Jesus?
It's a high level analogy: "If you don't do as I say, you will suffer".

If what the Bible tells us about life beyond the grave is true, and we have every reason to believe that it is (since much of what is said about eternity in the Bible comes directly from God Himself), wouldn't you rather know the truth about it now while there's still time to do something about it, rather than when you are standing before Him at the Judgment when it's too late?
There is not sufficient evidence to believe that what the Bible tells us about life beyond the grave is true. Life after death is a scientific claim and modern science is far more equipped to investigate this than were the people who lived around the time the Bible was written. As of today, science hasn't found anything to indicate there is any type of life after death. If it were true, would I rather know it now? Of course. But how would we go about demonstrating that it's true?

In fact, if you did end up at the Judgment not knowing the truth, wouldn't you complain bitterly and ask Him why He didn't bother to warn you? I know I would!
If God really does love all of us, he wouldn't treat a non-believer any worse than he would a believer.
 
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Kim7229

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You're definitely correct to imply that Christians have made mistakes concerning the ways in which some attempts have been made to "explain" the nature of the Christian faith. So, you're right on that. However, I'd like to suggest that when you say "mistakes Christianity makes," it kind of sounds like Christianity is being made out to be some kind of monolithic structure of thought and that there is only one method, one stance, one praxis by which to grapple philosophically with the myriad of ethical issues that inhere to the reality that we're all trying to live in. Could it be that some of the way in which you conceptualize the 'failures' of the Christian faith have come about because you've only been involved with certain strains or certain denominations of Christians?

I agree that stumbling across what seem to be logical inconsistencies in Christianity is (or can be) a substantive reason to want to turn away from Christianity. The only thing is, it's one thing to say that logical inconsistencies have been spotted, but it's quite another to actually cite for others the forms of logic, as well as the various praxes by which any one of us uses, to show that logic of some sort has been utilized so as to show that Christianity, as it 'really' is, is indeed faulty.

But, again, I'm not here to debate, so I'm simply offering some mediating factors to think about in the process of discussing your struggles----very legitimate struggles, at that!

What other things might there be? I'm just asking because there are certain rules in this "Struggles" section of CF that will prevent us from discussing some issues more explicitly or in-depth; in fact, there are some purposes you have that may need to be brought up instead in areas like the Ethics/Morality section or, more specifically, in the Christian Apologetics section.
You ask about struggles. It would be impossible for me to believe without a reconciliation of the problem of evil and the problem of omniscience. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. How do you reconcile the problem of evil and the problem of omniscience? Here are some illustrations:

If God loves everyone, can do anything and knows everything, then he would prevent a rapist from brutally raping a child. But he doesn't. How do you reconcile this?

If God knows everything, then he knows what you will choose out of any A/B choice you make tomorrow. Let's say he knows you'll choose A and you proceed to choose B. How do you reconcile this?
 
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Kim7229

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May I answer?.....

The topic of evil is the first thing that comes up when people decide that God does not exist. After all He claims to be the purest form of perfection right? So why is our world so messed up !

To your first question, God (A) "must not know evil", NO he does know evil just as we ourselves know evil. We know the difference between good and evil and so does God.

To your second question, (B) "must not be able to do anything about it", NO,God can change the course of any event whether good or evil. The important fact here is God gave us "free will" allowing us to choose between good and evil.
Maria, thanks for your response. I'd like to ask what you think is the reason God doesn't prevent cancer-stricken babies from getting cancer?
 
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Kim7229

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This is exactly the problem of evil I solved for you.
What you're doing is precisely one of the things that has driven me away from Christianity and makes me not want to go back. I asked a straightforward binary question which contained a true dichotomy and you wouldn't answer it. You obviously don't have to answer it if you don't wish.

When I was a Christian, I was taught if one asks a question about anything, you answer the question to the best of your ability and then add any comments or other potentially useful information. Here's my question for you again:

If God is good, then he must either (A) not know about evil or (B) must not be able to do anything about evil. If God is good, then which of those two do you think is more likely to be the case? What would you say - would it be A, B or both A and B?
 
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Dave L

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What you're doing is precisely one of the things that has driven me away from Christianity and makes me not want to go back. I asked a straightforward binary question which contained a true dichotomy and you wouldn't answer it. You obviously don't have to answer it if you don't wish.

When I was a Christian, I was taught if one asks a question about anything, you answer the question to the best of your ability and then add any comments or other potentially useful information. Here's my question for you again:

If God is good, then he must either (A) not know about evil or (B) must not be able to do anything about evil. If God is good, then which of those two do you think is more likely to be the case? What would you say - would it be A, B or both A and B?
God created evil for his glory. We have no concept of good without bad. Or mercy without wrath. Or love if not for hatred. Or sovereignty without damnation of some and salvation for others.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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How do you know that?

Well you would have to have some confidence that the Bible is historically accurate in order to believe these scriptural verses.

Exodus 13 (God)
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

John 8
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
 
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Kim7229

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God created evil for his glory. We have no concept of good without bad. Or mercy without wrath. Or love if not for hatred. Or sovereignty without damnation of some and salvation for others.
So you're saying the reason God doesn't prevent rapists from raping children is because without that, we have no concept of good vs. bad. If God can do anything, couldn't he have created us with an innate sense of good vs. bad?
 
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