Why I am a cessationist.

[Xeno.of.athens]

Another member of this forum has started a thread to explain why he is a continuationist. I have deep respect for those who do believe in the continuation of supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Scriptures give good reason to think that these gifts have continued. The Holy Scriptures also give good reasons to think that revelatory gifts have ceased. I am inclined to think that revelatory gifts have ceased because I have watched what becomes of churches that think that they continue. How quickly such churches can become a hotbed of insane ideas; doctrines that are harmful to people almost doctrines of demons.

 

[Unqualified]

Jesus reveals Himself to people in Muslim countries and to other people as well. The HS keeps on working revealing the scriptures to those who want others to hear. Jesus reveals Himself to people who want to be saved. He guides our lives through the scriptures.

 

[HTacianas]

Another member of this forum has started a thread to explain why he is a continuationist. I have deep respect for those who do believe in the continuation of supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Scriptures give good reason to think that these gifts have continued. The Holy Scriptures also give good reasons to think that revelatory gifts have ceased. I am inclined to think that revelatory gifts have ceased because I have watched what becomes of churches that think that they continue. How quickly such churches can become a hotbed of insane ideas; doctrines that are harmful to people almost doctrines of demons.

Probably a good place to start is with the term continualist. The term implies continuity. Yet those who claim that continuity are not a continuation of anything. It is a new idea. It's one that has not continued from the beginning. That's the reason I am a cessationist. All those things have not continued from the beginning up until today because they ceased. Now, if some monk on Mount Athos began speaking in tongues I would probably listen to him. But I'm sure that what he would have to say is more along the lines of perseverance in what we have known all along rather than claiming to be revealing some new idea. There are no new ideas. The ideas are very old.

 

[ARBITER01]

I am inclined to think that revelatory gifts have ceased because I have watched what becomes of churches that think that they continue. How quickly such churches can become a hotbed of insane ideas; doctrines that are harmful to people almost doctrines of demons.

In some ways I can see why you would think like that. Certain "revivals" tend to be with no self-control. People easily want to let the emotions and flesh rule the day. I'm an Assemblies of GOD Pentecostal, and most of the out of control issues are more centered on the Charismatic side of things, if people are honest about it, but even in our ranks people can be too quick to be excited and emotional. I've never been like that, and I have no way of understanding why others would be.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In some ways I can see why you would think like that. Certain "revivals" tend to be with no self-control. People easily want to let the emotions and flesh rule the day. I'm an Assemblies of GOD Pentecostal, and most of the out of control issues are more centered on the Charismatic side of things, if people are honest about it, but even in our ranks people can be too quick to be excited and emotional. I've never been like that, and I have no way of understanding why others would be.

What came to mind, first of all was the Toronto blessing. With people lying on their backs, laughing, behaving a little bit strangely, yet claiming that this was a direct Ministry of the Holy Spirit. Then there was the "revival" in Florida, with the punching evangelist Todd Bentley. And the word of faith movement with people like Kenneth Copeland. All of these movements seem to be full of people with distressingly crazy ideas. People who seem to worship money and worldly success more than they worship God. It's religion, but it's not Christianity.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Probably a good place to start is with the term continualist. The term implies continuity. Yet those who claim that continuity are not a continuation of anything. It is a new idea. It's one that has not continued from the beginning. That's the reason I am a cessationist. All those things have not continued from the beginning up until today because they ceased. Now, if some monk on Mount Athos began speaking in tongues I would probably listen to him. But I'm sure that what he would have to say is more along the lines of perseverance in what we have known all along rather than claiming to be revealing some new idea. There are no new ideas. The ideas are very old.

You are right. If it were a continuation of what was given in ancient times, it would be traceable through the centuries to today. But it is not. It's a new thing, a fad, a fashion in faith, a thing that people pursue because it's spectacular, almost, because it's entertaining.

 

[ARBITER01]

What came to mind, first of all was the Toronto blessing. With people lying on their backs, laughing, behaving a little bit strangely, yet claiming that this was a direct Ministry of the Holy Spirit. Then there was the "revival" in Florida, with the punching evangelist Todd Bentley. And the word of faith movement with people like Kenneth Copeland. All of these movements seem to be full of people with distressingly crazy ideas. People who seem to worship money and worldly success more than they worship God. It's religion, but it's not Christianity.

What is not seen are the small Pentecostal churches that are doing it biblically. Where a tongues message is given by The Holy Spirit, and an interpretation by The Holy Spirit is also given after that. Where the Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort is experienced throughout the tongues message as well as the interpretation.

But yes, those events you mentioned are easily looked at as craziness. Toronto was nothing more than the Arnott's hypnotizing people. The other examples are just idiots acting like idiots.

But back to my point, there are churches where The Holy Spirit is active with the gifts, and things are done with self-control, you're just not going to see those on TV or youtube.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What is not seen are the small Pentecostal churches that are doing it biblically. Where a tongues message is given by The Holy Spirit, and an interpretation by The Holy Spirit is also given after that. Where the Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort is experienced throughout the tongues message as well as the interpretation.

But yes, those events you mentioned are easily looked at as craziness. Toronto was nothing more than the Arnott's hypnotizing people. The other examples are just idiots acting like idiots.

But back to my point, there are churches where The Holy Spirit is active with the gifts, and things are done with self-control, you're just not going to see those on TV or youtube.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the church today, that he is present in healing and other activities. I do not believe that he is present in revealing new truth I do not believe that he is there to grant people insight and special wisdom about doctrine or about the way to live your life. The reason I don't believe he's doing those things is because people who make the claim that he spoke to them and told them these things, told them how others should live, or told them about a new doctrine, always seem to have a doctrine or a practise that is harmful to others. The Holy Spirit does not minister by hurting people. People minister to one another in harmful ways when greed and other motives come to the fore. That's where the problems lie, even the little church that you mention can have an ambitious member who makes the spectacular gifts and their spectacular claims, the basis for their ministry. They don't help people They harm them.

 

[The Liturgist]

Probably a good place to start is with the term continualist. The term implies continuity. Yet those who claim that continuity are not a continuation of anything. It is a new idea. It's one that has not continued from the beginning. That's the reason I am a cessationist. All those things have not continued from the beginning up until today because they ceased. Now, if some monk on Mount Athos began speaking in tongues I would probably listen to him. But I'm sure that what he would have to say is more along the lines of perseverance in what we have known all along rather than claiming to be revealing some new idea. There are no new ideas. The ideas are very old.

I don’t describe myself as a cessationist because I have experienced what I believe was the gift of tongues when I had a wordless conversation with Elder Ephrem of Arizona, memory eternal, and have seen other miracles performed by our monks, but I believe these charisms look nothing like what the charismatic and Pentecostal churches claim.

 

[RandyPNW]

Another member of this forum has started a thread to explain why he is a continuationist. I have deep respect for those who do believe in the continuation of supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Scriptures give good reason to think that these gifts have continued. The Holy Scriptures also give good reasons to think that revelatory gifts have ceased. I am inclined to think that revelatory gifts have ceased because I have watched what becomes of churches that think that they continue. How quickly such churches can become a hotbed of insane ideas; doctrines that are harmful to people almost doctrines of demons.

I do think there is a grave danger in letting "spiritual phenomena" go on unchecked. In my own Pentecostal denomination it is taught that all members have equal access to all gifts, as if this is a "democratic process!" All can be prophets, all can speak in tongues, all can be preachers, etc. etc.

And yet, we read from Paul that "Do all speak in tongues, do all prophesy?" The rhetorical question demands that we answer resoundingly, "No!" And yet the teaching continues because it is naturally thought that God is no "respecter of persons." Surely he wants us all to be chiefs, and nobody to be Indians?

But the reality is, God wants all kinds--He just wants us all to work together to transmit an image of Him. We do not have the ability to work miracles and healings at will. We cannot, just by force of intellect, exercise faith and empty hospitals and clinics! And yet this is being taught by Pentecostals every day. I'm ashamed that this is typical of my own denomination!

That being said, why cannot God continue to minister through all Christians long after the Apostles are dead and gone? Did the ministry of the Gospel end with them? Undoubtedly they were given special abilities in the time of Christ to confirm both his ministry and theirs. But once the foundation was built, I should think that it doesn't need to be built over and over again? Even so why should the ministry end, and not continue with signs to confirm its authenticity?

There is, in fact, evidence of intermittent demonstrations of gifts and healings during various periods in history and even in various periods in the lives of Christians. Not even the Apostles always displayed miracle power. When God interrupts dead secular history with a spiritual revival, there does tend to be an increase in supernatural phenomena. This is what, I think, we should expect.

Of course, if you haven't turned your whole life over to Christ, you may limit what power you do see from God. And yet, I've seen even "half-wit" Christians exercise very real power when they became serious and ministered the true word of God. Let's be level-headed about this. We're not the Holy Spirit. But yes, let's not "play God!" Let's let God do whatever He wants to do, even if that includes miracles--no, *especially* if it includes miracles!

 

[ARBITER01]

I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the church today, that he is present in healing and other activities. I do not believe that he is present in revealing new truth I do not believe that he is there to grant people insight and special wisdom about doctrine or about the way to live your life. The reason I don't believe he's doing those things is because people who make the claim that he spoke to them and told them these things, told them how others should live, or told them about a new doctrine, always seem to have a doctrine or a practise that is harmful to others. The Holy Spirit does not minister by hurting people. People minister to one another in harmful ways when greed and other motives come to the fore. That's where the problems lie, even the little church that you mention can have an ambitious member who makes the spectacular gifts and their spectacular claims, the basis for their ministry. They don't help people They harm them.

Well,...I'm not here to persuade one way or the other, just provide a bit of insight into that side of Christianity that most people only badmouth.

Paul had issues with the Corinthians, so this is not new.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Probably a good place to start is with the term continualist. The term implies continuity. Yet those who claim that continuity are not a continuation of anything. It is a new idea. It's one that has not continued from the beginning. That's the reason I am a cessationist. All those things have not continued from the beginning up until today because they ceased. Now, if some monk on Mount Athos began speaking in tongues I would probably listen to him. But I'm sure that what he would have to say is more along the lines of perseverance in what we have known all along rather than claiming to be revealing some new idea. There are no new ideas. The ideas are very old.

Yeah, I find the terms problematic, so it's a good place to start. Cessationism vs Continuism as we know it is a rather modern friction, mainly among our friends the Reformed and their daughter bodies. Historically, though, Charismatic and Pentecostal churches were referred to as Restorationist. They never claimed to be Continuists but believed in the restoration of apostles, prophets, and miracles.

In my own church body, the Lutheran Church, along with the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and I believe Methodist, the friction doesn't really fit our theological systems.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yeah, I find the terms problematic, so it's a good place to start. Cessationism vs Continuism as we know it is a rather modern friction, mainly among our friends the Reformed and their daughter bodies. Historically, though, Charismatic and Pentecostal churches were referred to as Restorationist. They never claimed to be Continuists but believed in the restoration of apostles, prophets, and miracles.

In my own church body, the Lutheran Church, along with the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and I believe Methodist, the friction doesn't really fit our theological systems.

Catholic Christians are willing to admit that some individuals may receive a private revelation from God. Such revelations usually involve something personal. A few times they may address a wider issue, perhaps a religious community, perhaps a little town or village. But the notion that God is speaking to people with general revelations intended for every Christian to hear and believe is contrary to Catholic belief. If you can't find a belief in holy tradition or in the Holy Scriptures, then you have no business believing it. It's bound to be a fiction, to be a fancy, a phantasm invented by the person who tells you about it. It isn't something that the Holy Spirit has revealed to them. I think Lutherans would believe that normative revelation has finished. It is complete at least until the second coming of Christ. The Orthodox will have a position on this, but I don't know what it is. I think that Anglicans would be reluctant to accept continuing general revelation that's normative for the whole church. The only groups that I know that may give credence to such an idea are some of the Pentecostal groups and some of the charismatic groups. Their theologies are relatively new, less than 200 years old. What credence you would give to a belief that's 100 years old I don't know. I would not be willing to give it very much credence.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Catholicism of the Catholic Church presents this matter with these words:

Article 1​

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THE REVELATION OF GOD​

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I. God Reveals His "Plan of Loving Goodness"​

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51 "It pleased God, in his goodness and wisdom, to reveal himself and to make known the mystery of his will. His will was that men should have access to the Father, through Christ, the Word made flesh, in the Holy Spirit, and thus become sharers in the divine nature."2​

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52 God, who "dwells in unapproachable light", wants to communicate his own divine life to the men he freely created, in order to adopt them as his sons in his only-begotten Son.3 By revealing himself God wishes to make them capable of responding to him, and of knowing him and of loving him far beyond their own natural capacity.​

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53 The divine plan of Revelation is realized simultaneously "by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other"4 and shed light on each another. It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.​

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St. Irenaeus of Lyons repeatedly speaks of this divine pedagogy using the image of God and man becoming accustomed to one another: the Word of God dwelt in man and became the Son of man in order to accustom man to perceive God and to accustom God to dwell in man, according to the Father's pleasure.5​

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2 DV 2; cf. Eph 1:9; 2:18; 2 Pt 1:4​

3 I Tim 6:16, cf. Eph 1:4-5.​

4 DV 2.​

5 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 20, 2: PG 7/1, 944; cf. 3, 17, 1; 4, 12, 4; 4, 21, 3.​

III. Christ Jesus -- "Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation"25

God has said everything in his Word

65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:​

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In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behaviour but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.27​

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.​

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67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.​

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Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfilment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".​

25 DV 2.
26 Heb 1:1-2
27 St. John of the Cross, the Ascent of Mount Carmel 2, 22, 3-5 in The Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, tr. K. Kavanaugh OCD and O. Rodriguez OCD (Washington DC: Institute of Carmelite Studies, 1979), 179-180: LH, Advent, week 2, Monday, OR.
28 DV 4; cf. I Tim 6:14; Titus 2:13

​

 

[Daniel9v9]

Catholic Christians are willing to admit that some individuals may receive a private revelation from God. Such revelations usually involve something personal. A few times they may address a wider issue, perhaps a religious community, perhaps a little town or village. But the notion that God is speaking to people with general revelations intended for every Christian to hear and believe is contrary to Catholic belief. If you can't find a belief in holy tradition or in the Holy Scriptures, then you have no business believing it. It's bound to be a fiction, to be a fancy, a phantasm invented by the person who tells you about it. It isn't something that the Holy Spirit has revealed to them. I think Lutherans would believe that normative revelation has finished. It is complete at least until the second coming of Christ. The Orthodox will have a position on this, but I don't know what it is. I think that Anglicans would be reluctant to accept continuing general revelation that's normative for the whole church. The only groups that I know that may give credence to such an idea are some of the Pentecostal groups and some of the charismatic groups. Their theologies are relatively new, less than 200 years old. What credence you would give to a belief that's 100 years old I don't know. I would not be willing to give it very much credence.

Well, I could agree in broad strokes, but it’s a bit more complex than this. My point is this: The reason why this tension don’t fit well in our church bodies’ doctrinal systems is because each body has a source of authority that makes this tension void. Simply speaking, if we were to ask different churches: “How does God speak to us?”, you’d get different answers. Our Eastern Orthodox friends would say Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition, by which they mean something relatively fixed to the first seven councils. Your church, the Roman Catholic Church, confesses that God speaks through the Roman Catholic Church, which includes Holy Scripture, Pope, and Holy Tradition which is not fixed. My church, the Lutheran Church, confesses it to be Holy Scripture, and our friends the Anglicans confess it to be Holy Scripture, reason and tradition. But where our Charismatic/Pentecostal friends differ is that they confess God to speak to us through Holy Scripture, prophets and, some but not all, apostles.

Let me give you two practical examples of what I mean:

Take a liberal Methodist church body for example. They don’t formally confess that God speaks to us through modern day prophets, but they do believe that God speaks through (at least parts of) Holy Scripture, reason and culture (which conveniently happens to be western culture as opposed to African or Asian ). So they hold that the Holy Spirit still speaks, only not in a Restorationist way. So the tension that our friends experience, particularly in non-denominational churches, doesn’t really fit their theological construct. However, it may be something many of their members struggle with, but at least formally, it’s not a problem in their doctrinal system.

Or to take another example: The Lutheran Church has a very simple view: Whatever conforms to the Scriptures can be received as from God, for it is God’s Word. If if doesn’t conform to the Scriptures, it can be disregarded. If the Scriptures are silent on it, we are not burdened by it. So we believe the Holy Spirit still speaks, but through God’s Word and the same rightly preached. So the tension doesn’t really fit our theological framework.

So here’s what I contend: It’s best to refer to Charismatic and Pentecostal churches as Restorationists, because that’s more historically accurate, and this is not something other church bodies formally claim. We don’t really have to wrestle with this tension — it’s more of a contemporary Evangelical or non-denominational problem.

 

[ARBITER01]

There is, in fact, evidence of intermittent demonstrations of gifts and healings during various periods in history and even in various periods in the lives of Christians. Not even the Apostles always displayed miracle power. When God interrupts dead secular history with a spiritual revival, there does tend to be an increase in supernatural phenomena. This is what, I think, we should expect.

A lot of folks run with the idea/lie that the gifts somehow ceased to exist in history, but people have documented their activity all throughout the centuries in various books.

And besides, there's always been outpourings of The Holy Spirit at various times throughout the years, not just at Azusa Street. Acts 2 is a pattern, a template, where if enough Christians get together praying hard enough and long enough to GOD The Holy Spirit will absolutely show up mightily just like He did before.

 

[RandyPNW]

A lot of folks run with the idea/lie that the gifts somehow ceased to exist in history, but people have documented their activity all throughout the centuries in various books.

And besides, there's always been outpourings of The Holy Spirit at various times throughout the years, not just at Azusa Street. Acts 2 is a pattern, a template, where if enough Christians get together praying hard enough and long enough to GOD The Holy Spirit will absolutely show up mightily just like He did before.

I totally agree. However, these things are a sovereign act of God, and should not be "duplicated" by relying on a "doctrine." We cannot force God to move. Every move He makes is His choice. I'm sure you would agree?

 

[ARBITER01]

I totally agree. However, these things are a sovereign act of God, and should not be "duplicated" by relying on a "doctrine." We cannot force God to move. Every move He makes is His choice. I'm sure you would agree?

You might be surprised.

Why/how do you think Azusa street happened? Those people were fasting and praying in services 3-4 times a day, 7 days a week. Basically around the clock services and worship of GOD. They didn't just have a revival, they had an outpouring happen just like in the upper room.

But yea, it is a template that can be repeated, and it seems it is GOD's choice to do this. It's happened in other places also. I believe holiness is the key. If people get before GOD enough in worship and get cleaned up spiritually, then The Holy Spirit can draw closer.

 

[RileyG]

Jesus reveals Himself to people in Muslim countries and to other people as well. The HS keeps on working revealing the scriptures to those who want others to hear. Jesus reveals Himself to people who want to be saved. He guides our lives through the scriptures.

I agree. The Holy Spirit is always at work in our lives.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Every claim to revelation from God needs a very big label on it, shouting, "be careful be warned, the contents may be dangerous."