Why I am a cessationist.

[JSRG]

Another member of this forum has started a thread to explain why he is a continuationist. I have deep respect for those who do believe in the continuation of supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Scriptures give good reason to think that these gifts have continued. The Holy Scriptures also give good reasons to think that revelatory gifts have ceased. I am inclined to think that revelatory gifts have ceased because I have watched what becomes of churches that think that they continue. How quickly such churches can become a hotbed of insane ideas; doctrines that are harmful to people almost doctrines of demons.

Can you define exactly what you mean by you being "cessationist"? The term can have multiple definitions, some of which seem completely incompatible with your own denomination (Catholicism). Without clear definitions of "cesastionist" and "continuationist", any discussion of them is not particularly fruitful.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Can you define exactly what you mean by you being "cessationist"? The term can have multiple definitions, some of which seem completely incompatible with your own denomination (Catholicism). Without clear definitions of "cesastionist" and "continuationist", any discussion of them is not particularly fruitful.

In brief, I mean a cessation of all direct normative revelation from God to the church.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have called myself a "continuationist", but that's with a lot of asterisks and footnotes attached.

I don't believe in Charismaticism as understood within those modern movements. Which means I am, at best, suspicious of many claims made; and concerning the more extreme claims not merely suspicious but outright in opposition as being outside the pale of what can be called acceptable in the Christian Church.

As @Daniel9v9 said, this continualist/cessationist friction is really unique to a certain spectrum of Protestantism, and isn't particularly applicable to those outside of the Reformed and Reformed-inherited traditions. So when I call myself a "continuationist" I'm using a term that is probably not completely correct in the context the term is usually used. Rather what I am saying is that I do not hold to a dogmatic position that, at some point, whether suddenly or gradually, certain charisms of the Spirit completely ceased.

I am entirely okay with the idea that someone might receive the gift of (e.g.) tongues. The asterisk and footnote to that is that I don't consider what is often called "tongues" in the last ~150 years to be that charism as spoken about in Scripture and which was historically something that has happened in the Church. But if someone, never having been taught or exposed to, say, French or German suddenly is speaking fully coherent phrases in French or German, and it is understood either by translation or by a native speaker of that language, and it is edifying and in harmony with Scripture and true Christian doctrine--then what should I do other than offer God praise for His gifts?

However, my personal experience, both inside and outside of Pentecostal and Charismatic traditions; and someone who "spoke in tongues" for nearly 15 years as a regular part of my personal devotional life--I'm simply not convinced that what I saw--and what I did myself--is truly and validly a biblical and Holy Spirit-originated phenomenon. That is going to be very offensive to some people. That isn't my intention, but that is where I am at as far as this conversation goes.

So that means I would say this, when I call myself a "continuationist" it means: Charisms? Yes. Charismaticism? No.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have called myself a "continuationist", but that's with a lot of asterisks and footnotes attached.

I don't believe in Charismaticism as understood within those modern movements. Which means I am, at best, suspicious of many claims made; and concerning the more extreme claims not merely suspicious but outright in opposition as being outside the pale of what can be called acceptable in the Christian Church.

As @Daniel9v9 said, this continualist/cessationist friction is really unique to a certain spectrum of Protestantism, and isn't particularly applicable to those outside of the Reformed and Reformed-inherited traditions. So when I call myself a "continuationist" I'm using a term that is probably not completely correct in the context the term is usually used. Rather what I am saying is that I do not hold to a dogmatic position that, at some point, whether suddenly or gradually, certain charisms of the Spirit completely ceased.

I am entirely okay with the idea that someone might receive the gift of (e.g.) tongues. The asterisk and footnote to that is that I don't consider what is often called "tongues" in the last ~150 years to be that charism as spoken about in Scripture and which was historically something that has happened in the Church. But if someone, never having been taught or exposed to, say, French or German suddenly is speaking fully coherent phrases in French or German, and it is understood either by translation or by a native speaker of that language, and it is edifying and in harmony with Scripture and true Christian doctrine--then what should I do other than offer God praise for His gifts?

However, my personal experience, both inside and outside of Pentecostal and Charismatic traditions; and someone who "spoke in tongues" for nearly 15 years as a regular part of my personal devotional life--I'm simply not convinced that what I saw--and what I did myself--is truly and validly a biblical and Holy Spirit-originated phenomenon. That is going to be very offensive to some people. That isn't my intention, but that is where I am at as far as this conversation goes.

So that means I would say this, when I call myself a "continuationist" it means: Charisms? Yes. Charismaticism? No.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree that the gifts that people are laying claim to in charismatic and Pentecostal circles are not really the gifts that we can identify in First Corinthians and elsewhere in the New Testament. What we hear in those circles is something different, something new. That probably explains why people claim that the tongues that they speak are the tongues of Angels or that they are ecstatic speech, or some other phenomena not yet fully explained by the sciences or by theology.

The idea that there are precisely nine gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined in the first letter to the Corinthians by Paul. is probably just a fantasy. Further I do not think that you will find any revelatory gifts present in any church today. Normative revelation is as far as I can workout restricted to what God has said in the Holy Scriptures and what is passed on in Holy Tradition. New ideas and new doctrines and clever word play and fancy little flourishes, along with claims that we're reviving stuff that was "New Testament", that we are going back to our Jewish roots, are fantasies.

 

[Hawkins]

The bottomline is that you are not God. So you don't know. He did in the past, and He will do in the future as shown in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 11:6
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Generally speaking, they are called the end time prophets. Generally speaking we are living in the end time now. It only says you are completely not ready for them to come. Possibly that's why,

Revelation 11:10
The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The bottomline is that you are not God. So you don't know

Who? Who doesn't know?

 

[Hawkins]

Who? Who doesn't know?

It's not complicated. If God will not continue to send prophets but everyone said He would, it doesn't matter as it won't make a difference just what it is most of the time in humanity. If however God continues to send prophets at a certain time but everyone said He won't, then it's a problem. As the world will not be ready for them to come and reckon them. This actually happened when Jesus came the first time.

That is, if all the Jews keep saying that their Messiah will come while God decided that no Messiah will be sent it doesn't matter as the Jews just keep up their hope. If however all the Jews keep saying that no Messiah will come on earth while God actually sends them Jesus, they will fail to reckon Jesus.

So just let God say whether they will be sent, instead of playing God to say that they won't be sent. While the Bible says that God sent prophets before, and will send in the future as hinted in the book of Revelation, so just wait!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's not complicated. If God will not continue to send prophets but everyone said He would, it doesn't matter as it won't make a difference just what it is most of the time in humanity. If however God continues to send prophets at a certain time but everyone said He won't, then it's a problem. As the world will not be ready for them to come and reckon them. This actually happened when Jesus came the first time.

That is, if all the Jews keep saying that their Messiah will come while God decided that no Messiah will be sent it doesn't matter as the Jews just keep up their hope. If however all the Jews keep saying that no Messiah will come on earth while God actually sends them Jesus, they will fail to reckon Jesus.

So just let God say whether they will be sent, instead of playing God to say that they won't be sent. While the Bible says that God sent prophets before, and will send in the future as hinted in the book of Revelation, so just wait!

I think that you do not really know what I know, so, you can't tell me what I do not know.

 

[Hawkins]

I think that you do not really know what I know, so, you can't tell me what I do not know.

I don't even bother to evaluate you. I am here just to share POVs for others to read.

 

[enoob57]

For me it is very simple... The gifts when displayed at the time of Christ and His Apostles directly following- no one could argue with the supernatural things being witnessed by their senses ... even Jesus' enemies could not write off the supernatural things being witnessed,,, in fact they had to attribute the realties to that of Satan doing it! That is certainly not the case today...