Why I Am A Continuationist

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree that it would be emotionally upsetting, a shock to the system, if one had believed that some specific man was a servant of God inspired by God to bring messages from God to you, only to find out that he was a sexual predator. And that all of his predictions and all of his messages were made up. What I wonder is if any modern prophet or any modern claimant to being an apostle or a messenger from God is credible, who could endure a proper test of credibility, who could face up to proper examination and scrutiny?

There is a whole community of television preachers who claim to speak for God, who have a message that they say has come from God, and that they are delivering to us in the end to us in these closing days of the last days. Could any of those men endure a proper examination and scrutiny?

Usually those men would resist scrutiny because they would accuse those who would scrutinise their words of denying God's Word and rebelling against the authority of the anointing that God has given them. Benny Hinn's counter to those who doubt the veracity of his prophecies is "Do not touch the Lord's anointed otherwise a curse will come upon you from God." Of course this is a twisting of the Scripture which actually means not to touch the nation of Israel because it is the nation who is anointed of God. In the latest challenge to Mike Bickle, he has responded with a negative message from the pulpit against his challengers accompanied by judgmental prophecies. He believes that he has a special anointing from God that puts him above anyone who would question his teaching and prophecies.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Usually those men would resist scrutiny because they would accuse those who would scrutinise their words of denying God's Word and rebelling against the authority of the anointing that God has given them. Benny Hinn's counter to those who doubt the veracity of his prophecies is "Do not touch the Lord's anointed otherwise a curse will come upon you from God." Of course this is a twisting of the Scripture which actually means not to touch the nation of Israel because it is the nation who is anointed of God. In the latest challenge to Mike Bickle, he has responded with a negative message from the pulpit against his challengers accompanied by judgmental prophecies. He believes that he has a special anointing from God that puts him above anyone who would question his teaching and prophecies.

Well, those sorts of testimonies just give me all the more reason to think that any church, that is willing to accept that people today are receiving new revelation from God that is intended to be normative, are making a terrible mistake.

 

[ARBITER01]

Looking back we can all see the excesses and call out the modern day circus.

How do we correct the structural error that has allowed this to happen?

I don't think it is possible.

It goes from one extreme to the other. Either a church completely blocks any sort of Spiritual activity and teaches against it, or they are just too open to any sort of Spiritual activity and don't correct people on their lack of self control and bad habits.

To be honest it's carnality either way.

It takes a good leader beating back unnecessary activities from people and teaching them correctly about the gifts, but they seem to be in short supply nowadays.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't think it is possible.

It goes from one extreme to the other. Either a church completely blocks any sort of Spiritual activity and teaches against it, or they are just too open to any sort of Spiritual activity and don't correct people on their lack of self control and bad habits.

To be honest it's carnality either way.

It takes a good leader beating back unnecessary activities from people and teaching them correctly about the gifts, but they seem to be in short supply nowadays.

I wonder if the only hope is small groups likely under persecution fully dependent on Him.

Years ago I presented a 'word' to a conference on Christian Community referring to the passage in 2 Chron 18/2 Kings 22 suggesting that the Church has entered a battle that was not ordained and folks were released from the obligation to participate and find rather a central locus of faith in family and friends 'returning to their home in peace' - this would give opportunity for a fresh biblical approach without the denominational mess. - a symptom of Church having lost it's way is the deafening silence of Church Leaders on the world stage. Paul was testifying to the highest authorities because his ministry was stirring up opposition - not because he was diplomatic...

By the way that passage also records the closing down of real prophesy...

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, those sorts of testimonies just give me all the more reason to think that any church, that is willing to accept that people today are receiving new revelation from God that is intended to be normative, are making a terrible mistake.

If I'm reading you right, you're idea of new revelation you're talking about is the type that people speak to others about their future and such. If so, I agree.

But new revelation in the sense that GOD is active in our lives warning us in dreams, revealing understandings inside us about His word, giving visions to us with insight to the future of things that will be directly affecting us and others,.... all these sorts of new revelations are absolutely active in our lives with the gifts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If I'm reading you right, you're idea of new revelation you're talking about is the type that people speak to others about their future and such. If so, I agree.

But new revelation in the sense that GOD is active in our lives warning us in dreams, revealing understandings inside us about His word, giving visions to us with insight to the future of things that will be directly affecting us and others,.... all these sorts of new revelations are absolutely active in our lives with the gifts.

Perhaps I have given a misunderstanding when I have spoken against new revelation. What I don't go along with is people coming up with new revelation that actually adds to the Word of God that are in conflict with what has already been stated in Scripture. When I say that God has spoken everything He has to say within the canon of Scripture, I don't mean that God is not speaking to our hearts today. If I meant that, I would have to throw in the rubbish bin my book: "If God Can Speak To Me, He Can Surely Speak to You", where I testify about all the times where God has spoken directly to my heart at different stages of my life.

There are times when He speaks to me through Scripture, other times through a preacher at church, reading a Christian book, and giving me direction when I have needed to get back on the right path. At one stage I was walking in the flesh in a certain area, and He said, "You are not walking according to My standards are you?" I had to answer yes. He said, "Well we can work through this as long as you don't stop fellowshiping with Me." And so, I kept talking with Him and He ordered circumstances where I was able to walk away from where I was going wrong. Another clear episode was when I was selected to go to teachers college, and then I got a letter to say I wasn't because I didn't have university entrance, I sought God about it and He said, "I've held it up." I asked why, He said, "Because you have a choice. Go back to Wellington and continue living in that relationship, or go to Christchurch to teachers college where no one knows you and you don't know where you are going to live. If you go back to Wellington, I won't be with you." My reply was, "What choice do I have?" And I was on the train to Christchurch the very next day. When we search the Scriptures, we see that the way God spoke to my heart on those occasions was perfectly consistent with how He would deal with people. This was not new revelation that needed to be added to Scripture. These were the Holy Spirit guiding me and showing me the way to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

I have all sorts of thoughts and impressions come to me during the day, and I don't usually go along with them. But sometimes there is a strong impression about something that causes me to pause and check it out, it is then that a verse of Scripture will come to me to make thing clear to me. When I have prepared the hymns for a service that I am taking at church, I ask the Lord for the right ones, and titles will come to mind, and when there are three or four that seem right to me, I find that when the service is running, they have been the most appropriate hymns that have fitted right into the theme of the message.

I remember thinking about an ex-minister one day, and I got the distinct thought to give him an encouraging word. I emailed him and gave him that word. I said, I don't know whether this is from the Lord or not, but these are the thoughts that came to me. He replied to say that the word was so accurate that it was remarkable because I would have had no way to know about his circumstances that fitted the word so well. This is an example of true prophecy, where a word can fit so accurately with another's circumstances so well that just just had to be a word from the Lord for him.

When there was a prophecy forum on CF, I have quite a number of prophetic words to people through that forum, and I was blown away by the positive feedback from so many people who were amazed at the accuracy of those words for their circumstances. It was only when a person started asking for a word each day that I stopped, because it came to me that the fellow was depending on me instead of the Holy Spirit. I felt that the Lord was telling me that the gift of prophecy was not the same as providing someone with a "horoscope", and that an encouraging prophetic word happens only once in a while when it cannot come any other way for that person.

So, if anyone comes saying that God speaks to them in special ways that He doesn't speak to ordinary Christian believers and that what God speaks to him is authoritative in a way that his word should not be judged because of his "special anointing", then we should not listen to that man because he is prophesying falsely.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If I'm reading you right, you're idea of new revelation you're talking about is the type that people speak to others about their future and such. If so, I agree.

Have you concluded that the message of Knowledge gift listed in 1 Cor 12 is no longer active ? or are you referring to something else?

 

[ARBITER01]

Have you concluded that the message of Knowledge gift listed in 1 Cor 12 is no longer active ? or are you referring to something else?

The predictive foretelling gift is the word of wisdom. The word of knowledge deals with current and past facts.

I was agreeing with X about the personal predictive prophecy stuff, or at least that is what I thought he/she was talking about.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If I'm reading you right, you're idea of new revelation you're talking about is the type that people speak to others about their future and such. If so, I agree.

No, that's not specifically what I was thinking about. What I have on my mind is new Revelation of the exact. same type and standard as. the books of the Bible. For example, if we had prophets today why do we not have the book of the prophecies of the Prophet Philip? And if we had apostles, why do we not have a letter from the apostle Arthur to the churches of North America? Why is there no book called the acts of the apostles in the United States? Or the acts of the Apostles in the continent of Europe? Why is there no book of lamentation for the nation of Germany after World War Two? Why are there no psalms inspired by the Holy Spirit? And why is there no book called the Apocalypse of Ignatius the seer of Chicago?

There are many who make mighty claims about themselves and their own ministries. But there are not many who can produce the fruit that one would expect from a ministry genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ARBITER01]

No, that's not specifically what I was thinking about. What I have on my mind is new Revelation of the exact. same type and standard as the books of the Bible. For example, if we had prophets today why do we not have the book of the prophecies of the Prophet Philip? And if we had apostles, why do we not have a letter from the apostle Arthur to the churches of North America? Why is there no book called the axe of the apostles in the United States? Or the acts of the Apostles in the continent of Europe? Why is there no book of lamentation for the nation of Germany after World War Two? Why are there no psalms inspired by the Holy Spirit? And why is there no book called the Apocalypse of Ignatius the seer of Chicago?

Agabus was a prophet in the NT, and GOD didn't have him writing scripture.

I've stated elsewhere that prophets that GOD would use to write scripture nowadays will be absolutely rare, if not extinct. It's not beyond GOD to do what He wills, but I'm not sure if GOD has any plans on raising up a prophet that would write new predictive revelation.

Otherwise,..... prophets of the NT might operate more in the revelation of events in people's lives like Agabus. I can't say for sure because I've never run into an actual NT prophet/prophetess. I've only ever run into wannabes.

 

[Hawkins]

It's rather a misconception that because the Bible is completed that God will not send prophets anymore. God will continue to send prophets whenever He sees fit.

The bottomline is that you are not God. So you don't know. He did in the past, and He will do in the future as shown in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 11:6
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Generally speaking, they are called the end time prophets. Generally speaking we are living in the end time now. It only says you are completely not ready for them to come. Possibly that's why,

Revelation 11:10
The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It's rather a misconception that because the Bible is completed that God will not send prophets anymore. God will continue to send prophets whenever He sees fit.

The bottomline is that you are not God. So you don't know. He did in the past, and He will do in the future as shown in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 11:6
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Generally speaking, they are called the end time prophets. Generally speaking we are living in the end time now. It only says you are completely not ready for them to come. Possibly that's why,

Revelation 11:10
The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

The reality is that none of the modern prophets have been able to successfully predict future events, and when they have tried, they have all been wrong. None of the modern prophets predicted the attack on Israel by Hamas, and the retaliatory action that has resulted in the deaths of over 25,000 Palestinians. This is a major world event but none of these prophets were able to predict it. They were also not able to predict Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and the resulting war. Furthermore, none of the prophets have been able to predict the various mass shootings of people in parts of the United States in the last year or two.

What has been predicted by Jesus, Peter, John and Jude, is the big rise in false prophets around the world, who are deceiving multitudes. The latest scandal involving the Kansas City prophets, shows that three of the prominent prophets have been disgraced because of immoral behaviour, that makes decades of their prophecies totally false, especially the manipulative ones that have closed churches in the Kansas City area because elders of those churches thought the prophecies came from God and obeyed what was said.

Jeremiah 23 has now become very relevant in describing our modern false prophets.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If you think of today's prophets and today's apostles as people who want to have authority in their particular church, and who want everybody to listen to their every word as if it was direct communication from God, then you've got the right picture. These people are no more prophets than was your local charlatan in the days of Christ. They are more like the people in "Monty Python's life of Brian" standing in the square, talking about Rafia work, and baskets, and other strange stuff; that was very funny in the film, but loses all of its humour value when it's taken seriously and presented as if it were the word of God.

 

[Richard T]

I just wanted to say that I read through all the threads on this post and found a lot of inspiration. Thanks for keeping it civil. All I will add is that I basically am in part, a Hagin disciple and whereas one suggested a line was crossed with him, or E. W. Kenyon. To me the line was crossed after he passed. Watch Billye Brim lament and call out the NAR movement. How Hagin told her there would always be dominionist types. Watch Mario Murillo speak out too against the false prophecy that has recently emerged. Was there words of wisdom in operation? Hagin,'s "I believe in Visions" book outlines his vision of God showing him in the early 60s that drugs and immorality demons were coming on the USA and to pray against them. Yes, Hagin took mark 11:23 literally and got healed. Then he went on and preached the message that got the word fo faith movement started. Was that wrong? Also as a dirt poor minister in texas, he turned to God and learned to believe God for finances for his family. Yes, some of his disciples took prosperity too far. His book "the midas touch" includes warnings and abuses with money. Anyway, sorry if i got off track from the subject but I never saw much error in Hagin. NAR is unique because their end time outlook is foreign to not only the old time Pentecostals, but to the Tulsa crowd such as Hagin, Roberts, and Osborn. If I had to guess many took formulas but never developed faith. Thus, some end up declaring out of presumption, like Covid will go away quickly, or hurricanes will be re-routed. I'm sure there were some excesses in Hagin's time, but to me things likely got weird about the time of the Toronto Vineyard movement. Still, I would rather err on the side or freedom for the holy Spirit to move in gifts, than never giving it a chance. Course if you believe in cessation that is understandable, the Holy Spirit still brings brings repentance, and is a helper and teacher etc. Anyway thanks to God for this thread and some thought provoking posts.

1 Corinthians 14:26 (KJV) 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I just wanted to say that I read through all the threads on this post and found a lot of inspiration. Thanks for keeping it civil. All I will add is that I basically am in part, a Hagin disciple and whereas one suggested a line was crossed with him, or E. W. Kenyon. To me the line was crossed after he passed. Watch Billye Brim lament and call out the NAR movement. How Hagin told her there would always be dominionist types. Watch Mario Murillo speak out too against the false prophecy that has recently emerged. Was there words of wisdom in operation? Hagin,'s "I believe in Visions" book outlines his vision of God showing him in the early 60s that drugs and immorality demons were coming on the USA and to pray against them. Yes, Hagin took mark 11:23 literally and got healed. Then he went on and preached the message that got the word fo faith movement started. Was that wrong? Also as a dirt poor minister in texas, he turned to God and learned to believe God for finances for his family. Yes, some of his disciples took prosperity too far. His book "the midas touch" includes warnings and abuses with money. Anyway, sorry if i got off track from the subject but I never saw much error in Hagin. NAR is unique because their end time outlook is foreign to not only the old time Pentecostals, but to the Tulsa crowd such as Hagin, Roberts, and Osborn. If I had to guess many took formulas but never developed faith. Thus, some end up declaring out of presumption, like Covid will go away quickly, or hurricanes will be re-routed. I'm sure there were some excesses in Hagin's time, but to me things likely got weird about the time of the Toronto Vineyard movement. Still, I would rather err on the side or freedom for the holy Spirit to move in gifts, than never giving it a chance. Course if you believe in cessation that is understandable, the Holy Spirit still brings brings repentance, and is a helper and teacher etc. Anyway thanks to God for this thread and some thought provoking posts.

1 Corinthians 14:26 (KJV) 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

The thing about Hagin and Kenyon is that Hagin basically plagiarized Kenyon, and Kenyon's work was basically just a repackaging of New Thought, a spiritualist movement from the 19th century, a time where esotericism and spiritualism gained a great deal of popularity. These were the antecedents to the modern New Age movement(s).

NAR certainly is way over the line with its dominionism, but that's just one problem it has among many. The root problem, the core problem, is false spirituality rooted in esoteric magical ways of viewing the world in which human beings have access (call it mediums, call it God, call it the power of faith, call it whatever one wants) to a supernatural ability to affect the world through power-infused words and thinking. Whether one calls it word of faith, positive affirmation, or manifesting, it's all the same snake oil, just sold under different brand names.

The Power of Positive Thinking - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Affirmations (New Age) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Law of attraction (New Thought) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is magic. Not abra kadabra fireball fantasy magic. This is magic as a worldview, as a way of believing the universe works. Which is diametrically in opposition to the biblical worldview, to the Christian belief on how the universe works.

St. Paul had a thorn in his flesh, for which He regularly prayed to be delivered from, the Lord's response to him was, "My grace is sufficient for you".

Our Lord Jesus Christ said, "In this world you will have trouble." And He said, "Take up your cross and follow Me".

The cross is not pleasurable, or easy, it is not pleasant. The cross represented, symbolized, and was in real concrete form the horror and terror of one of the worst fates an ancient person could conceive. The suffering of the cross was not, to the ancient mind, something pious and holy sounding--but a nightmare to be avoided at all costs. There were so many other preferable ways to die, the cross was shameful, ugly, horrific, terror-inducing. But Jesus says that anyone who would dare call themselves His disciple must take up their cross and follow Him, we are not worthy to even be called students of the Lord apart from this cross. But, in faith, we are to take up this cross--this suffering, this ugliness, this shame, this weakness--with joy.

"Consider it all joy my brothers" wrote St. James "when you meet tribulations of various kinds"

The gift of faith we have received is not faith that makes us happy, wealthy, and healthy. But faith that meets the horrors of this present, evil, suffering, broken world, has joy--joy not from the things of this fallen age, but joy that comes from Christ who has defeated every power and principality, and has made a public spectacle and a mockery of all that is evil, fallen, and powerful here. Neither Satan nor Caesar can destroy what we have received in Christ.

Though Caesar may throw us to the lions, and though the devil may seek to destroy our resolve; Christ has won the battle. The Cross, therefore, for all its agony and shame, is the pure joy of an allegiance to Jesus Christ who already faced everything this world could throw at Him, and came out the other side victorious. Even death itself has been slain by the One called a Lamb.

But a cross, nevertheless, shall we carry. A cross, nevertheless, shall be our life here. In this world we will have trouble, tribulation, suffering, strife. We will be combatting with our own flesh day in and day out. We will be at war against all the spiritual powers and principalities of darkness, every lying tongue of every devil, every deceitful thought and savage impulse. We will be beaten, struck down, however we will NOT be destroyed. For greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. In Christ we are more than conquerors.

We will get cancer. We will not be able to afford all our bills. We will get sick, lose limbs, be burdened by debts and sorrows. We will be betrayed by friends and family. We will stumble, and struggle, against the sinful appetites of our own flesh. The devil will whisper and lie.

But faith, faith shall grant us victory; not because we will always be cured of disease, not because we will be lifted out of our poverty, not because we will have happy marriages, or good jobs, or win the lottery. Nor will we attain perfect holiness while we are alive with these perishable bodies of death. But faith shall grant us victory because Christ is Risen, and He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and He will come again. The day will come when justice shall flow, like an everflowing river. Where the glory and goodness of God shall cover the whole earth as waters cover the oceans. The day will come when every valley shall be lifted, and every mountain laid low--the proud shall be humbled, the lowly shall be exalted. Even these mortal, frail, weak, bodies of disease, dismemberment, and lustful desire shall be transformed into a glorious thing worthy of God's glory.

So even in weakness, God is strong.
Even in shame, God is glorified.
Even in suffering, we are more than conquerors.
We are beaten down, pinned down, chased out, despised--but never destroyed, never defeated.
For God is with us.

In this life we have a cross.
But Christ is Risen. Glory to God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Richard T]

The thing about Hagin and Kenyon is that Hagin basically plagiarized Kenyon, and Kenyon's work was basically just a repackaging of New Thought, a spiritualist movement from the 19th century, a time where esotericism and spiritualism gained a great deal of popularity. These were the antecedents to the modern New Age movement(s).

NAR certainly is way over the line with its dominionism, but that's just one problem it has among many. The root problem, the core problem, is false spirituality rooted in esoteric magical ways of viewing the world in which human beings have access (call it mediums, call it God, call it the power of faith, call it whatever one wants) to a supernatural ability to affect the world through power-infused words and thinking. Whether one calls it word of faith, positive affirmation, or manifesting, it's all the same snake oil, just sold under different brand names.

The Power of Positive Thinking - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Affirmations (New Age) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Law of attraction (New Thought) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is magic. Not abra kadabra fireball fantasy magic. This is magic as a worldview, as a way of believing the universe works. Which is diametrically in opposition to the biblical worldview, to the Christian belief on how the universe works.

St. Paul had a thorn in his flesh, for which He regularly prayed to be delivered from, the Lord's response to him was, "My grace is sufficient for you".

Our Lord Jesus Christ said, "In this world you will have trouble." And He said, "Take up your cross and follow Me".

The cross is not pleasurable, or easy, it is not pleasant. The cross represented, symbolized, and was in real concrete form the horror and terror of one of the worst fates an ancient person could conceive. The suffering of the cross was not, to the ancient mind, something pious and holy sounding--but a nightmare to be avoided at all costs. There were so many other preferable ways to die, the cross was shameful, ugly, horrific, terror-inducing. But Jesus says that anyone who would dare call themselves His disciple must take up their cross and follow Him, we are not worthy to even be called students of the Lord apart from this cross. But, in faith, we are to take up this cross--this suffering, this ugliness, this shame, this weakness--with joy.

"Consider it all joy my brothers" wrote St. James "when you meet tribulations of various kinds"

The gift of faith we have received is not faith that makes us happy, wealthy, and healthy. But faith that meets the horrors of this present, evil, suffering, broken world, has joy--joy not from the things of this fallen age, but joy that comes from Christ who has defeated every power and principality, and has made a public spectacle and a mockery of all that is evil, fallen, and powerful here. Neither Satan nor Caesar can destroy what we have received in Christ.

Though Caesar may throw us to the lions, and though the devil may seek to destroy our resolve; Christ has won the battle. The Cross, therefore, for all its agony and shame, is the pure joy of an allegiance to Jesus Christ who already faced everything this world could throw at Him, and came out the other side victorious. Even death itself has been slain by the One called a Lamb.

But a cross, nevertheless, shall we carry. A cross, nevertheless, shall be our life here. In this world we will have trouble, tribulation, suffering, strife. We will be combatting with our own flesh day in and day out. We will be at war against all the spiritual powers and principalities of darkness, every lying tongue of every devil, every deceitful thought and savage impulse. We will be beaten, struck down, however we will NOT be destroyed. For greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. In Christ we are more than conquerors.

We will get cancer. We will not be able to afford all our bills. We will get sick, lose limbs, be burdened by debts and sorrows. We will be betrayed by friends and family. We will stumble, and struggle, against the sinful appetites of our own flesh. The devil will whisper and lie.

But faith, faith shall grant us victory; not because we will always be cured of disease, not because we will be lifted out of our poverty, not because we will have happy marriages, or good jobs, or win the lottery. Nor will we attain perfect holiness while we are alive with these perishable bodies of death. But faith shall grant us victory because Christ is Risen, and He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and He will come again. The day will come when justice shall flow, like an everflowing river. Where the glory and goodness of God shall cover the whole earth as waters cover the oceans. The day will come when every valley shall be lifted, and every mountain laid low--the proud shall be humbled, the lowly shall be exalted. Even these mortal, frail, weak, bodies of disease, dismemberment, and lustful desire shall be transformed into a glorious thing worthy of God's glory.

So even in weakness, God is strong.
Even in shame, God is glorified.
Even in suffering, we are more than conquerors.
We are beaten down, pinned down, chased out, despised--but never destroyed, never defeated.
For God is with us.

In this life we have a cross.
But Christ is Risen. Glory to God.

-CryptoLutheran

You are right it is not magic, and yes Hagin became familiar with earlier teachers that had notions about faith. However, I do believe it was true that hagin was healed after believing Mark 11:23. It was not formula or magic to him. You can read about him contending in faith for his family's health all night. The problem is not that faith is not possible for solutions but that the price is too high and most are not willing to pay it. Instead they operate out of presumption and never take the time to pray it through. The early leaders of the word of faith knew this but the lazier disciples just take the message but do not want to pray it through. Yes, the affliction of the righteous are many but the Lord delivers us from them all. The effectual prayer of the righteous man availeth much. It is not works, to pray something through, it is just getting yourself into position to hear from God, and through that hearing getting the rhema needed for that situation. Anyway, thanks for the good post and sharing your thoughts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are right it is not magic, and yes Hagin became familiar with earlier teachers that had notions about faith. However, I do believe it was true that hagin was healed after believing Mark 11:23. It was not formula or magic to him. You can read about him contending in faith for his family's health all night. The problem is not that faith is not possible for solutions but that the price is too high and most are not willing to pay it. Instead they operate out of presumption and never take the time to pray it through. The early leaders of the word of faith knew this but the lazier disciples just take the message but do not want to pray it through. Yes, the affliction of the righteous are many but the Lord delivers us from them all. The effectual prayer of the righteous man availeth much. It is not works, to pray something through, it is just getting yourself into position to hear from God, and through that hearing getting the rhema needed for that situation. Anyway, thanks for the good post and sharing your thoughts.

Although I have posted comments about my view that Hagin and his disciples are false teachers, I have had another look at the verse, "We have the treasure in earthen vessels", and I started a thread about "Imperfect Ministry". I now think that Hagin fits into this, and instead of rejecting him outright, we must pick the meat from the bones, by testing his teaching and practice, spitting out what doesn't seem to be consistent with the New Testament, and holding fast the things that are good about his ministry. It is true that many have been won to Christ through him and I think that can't be ignored.

We all have faults, just the same as people like Jehu, David, Solomon, yet their hearts with right with God. Peter denied Christ, yet it was recognised that he had a good heart and the Lord made the effort to restore him, while Judas had a bad heart and he came to a sticky end.

But I can't say the same about some of Hagin's "disciples" who are preaching blatant heresy in the form of their version of the prosperity gospel and guaranteed healing in exchange for their "seed offering" of money.

Then again, God sees our hearts, and the Scripture says, "The foundation of God stands sure; the Lord knows who are His."