• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why evolution should not be a religious issue

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
If someone makes a profession of faith to me, and later sees a Chick tract and has a "stop the world and let me off" reaction; I'm going to wonder whether he got saved in the first place.

Why would someone give up all this:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


... as well as this ...

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


... as well as this ...

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

... for this:

i-160e6b705aeb4b8fbc3c58878e6d668a-chick3.jpg
Because there is nothing of the Gospel in a Chick Tract.
 
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟288,596.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
If someone makes a profession of faith to me, and later sees a Chick tract and has a "stop the world and let me off" reaction; I'm going to wonder whether he got saved in the first place.

Why would someone give up all this:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


... as well as this ...

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


... as well as this ...

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

... for this:

i-160e6b705aeb4b8fbc3c58878e6d668a-chick3.jpg
Assertions are easily used to persuade emotionally vulnerable people, and when they are in a mental state to evaluate things rationally, specious claims are seen for what they are. Reality often has a way of trumping empty rhetoric.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,201
52,658
Guam
✟5,152,792.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Assertions are easily used to persuade emotionally vulnerable people, and when they are in a mental state to evaluate things rationally, specious claims are seen for what they are.
And when they "come to their senses" afterwards, and don't realize they made the right choice, then again, I don't believe they were truly saved in the first place.

And it sounds to me like you're agreeing, but for different reasons.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
And when they "come to their senses" afterwards, and don't realize they made the right choice, then again, I don't believe they were truly saved in the first place.

And it sounds to me like you're agreeing, but for different reasons.
Still, it would come as a shock to be handed something as nasty as a Chick Track. It would be something the same as if you joined what you had been led to believe was the local branch of the Republican Party and then you were handed a copy of the Communist Manifesto and told that was what you had agreed to.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,201
52,658
Guam
✟5,152,792.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Still, it would come as a shock to be handed something as nasty as a Chick Track.
I don't believe that either.

First of all, a saved person would be more likely to be handing them out, than receiving them.

Second of all, if you can shock a person out of his profession in Christ, then why aren't you using the Westboro Baptist church or the Jesus Camp as better examples?

Thirdly, why aren't I shocked out of my profession in Christ, in light of the shenanigans of the aforementioned?

Fourthly, of all those I have talked to here that have told me they deconverted, it has always been due to doctrinal issues or eureka moments in science; not the shenanigans pulled by others.

Fifthly, I'd love to see a report on Independents who claim they deconverted, as compared to those in denominations.

I usually take a "that's what you get for being in a denomination" attitude towards many that deconvert.

And for the record, I expected Traitor Falwell to say or do something indicative of continuing stupidity, but I didn't see it happen.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
I don't believe that either.

First of all, a saved person would be more likely to be handing them out, than receiving them.
What an unpleasant thought--kind of like a kindly appearing neighbor found to be giving out trick-or-treat candy with ground glass in it.

Second of all, if you can shock a person out of his profession in Christ, then why aren't you using the Westboro Baptist church or the Jesus Camp as better examples?
Because they are "somebody else." I was thinking of the shock which would follow being handed a Chick Tract by the same person or group who evangelized you. I mean, if a fellow can preach the Gospel of Christ and endorse Chick Tracts, there is definitely something strange going on.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,201
52,658
Guam
✟5,152,792.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What an unpleasant thought--kind of like a kindly appearing neighbor found to be giving out trick-or-treat candy with ground glass in it.
Wife and I used to give out Halloween Chick tracts. :oldthumbsup:

(Did you get one?)
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,337
Sydney, Australia.
✟259,864.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Hello Astrophile.

Thanks for your input.
I think that the problem is that you are comparing apples with oranges. The theory of evolution is a scientific theory, and it is, like all scientific theories, vulnerable to being disproved by new evidence.
Science is an ideology, mankind is fixated with ideology.

It is not so much that the theory of evolution lacks the key evidence. It is more so, that the scientific pursuit is fast becoming so incredibly complex, that we don't even understand the results of the scientific experiments (Hadron Collider).
However, the rival idea, namely the belief in supernatural creation by a God
No rivalry at all, between an idea that an observation can reveal truth, and the revelation of the truth. Not so much apples and oranges, rather chalk and cheese. One is an idea that a Greek philosopher Leucippus, had in the past (indivisible particles). The other was the revelation of God in human form. One is an idea, the other is not an idea. No comparison is possible between idea and revelation.
one is not a scientific theory, since there is no way in which it can be tested, nor can it be falsified, even in principle. God could have created the universe in six days, with varved sediments, fossils embedded in the rocks, white dwarf stars, supernova remnants, and all the other evidence of a long history, already present. There is no possible way of disproving this idea, therefore it is not a scientific theory.
Exactly what I previously stated, a revelation is not an ideology.

Only ideas can be evaluated in the realm of human thought. The idea that observation reveals truth, is an assumption. We cannot know whether any ideology will lead to any truth statement. One needs to be a believer, to believe in any idea, one needs to be a believer in observation, to be a scientist.
If the theory of evolution were to be disproved, it would be replaced by a new scientific theory based on natural processes, equally vulnerable to disproof by new evidence, and, presumably, equally unacceptable to creationists. It would not be replaced by a theory of supernatural creation by a God. Thus, if the theory of evolution were to be disproved, creationists would still be in the same position that they are in now.
If science makes any claim, then the onus is on science to prove the claim. If science cannot prove evolution, then science cannot make the claim in the first place. Mathematics is a pure ideology, axioms are established in mathematics, axioms are not assumptions. Mathematics can contains proofs using axioms, science makes assumptions not axioms, science cannot prove theoretical statements.
Of course, other scientific theories, such as the theories of electromagnetism, thermodynamics, stellar dynamics, and elementary particle physics, are just as susceptible to disproof by new evidence as the theory of evolution.
Your missing the point, increasing knowledge delivers an increasing awareness of the alarming increase in complexity in science. I do believe science is pushing the limitations of the human intellect in the endeavor to understand space time.

Astrophysics and sub-atomic physics, is so complex now, no one understands the paradigms any more. It is not so much whether anything can be proven, it more seriously concerns, whether we understand anything enough to investigate it thoroughly.
Do you think that scientists ought to abandon these theories and adopt creationist or Biblical electromagnetism, thermodynamics, etc.?
The human intellect is limited, any intellectual pursuit will ultimately fail, we were defeated before we started. Space time is far beyond the understanding of the human intellect. Though I am fascinated by astrophysics and particle physics, I recognize that knowledge is ultimately an invalid source of truth.
The one part of modern young-Earth-creationism that is testable by the scientific method is flood geology, the belief that the sedimentary rocks, with their fossils, was deposited by Noah's flood. This hypothesis was conclusively disproved in about 1830, nearly 200 years ago. Scientifically, it is as dead as phlogiston theory and the theory that comets are phenomena in the Earth's atmosphere. This demonstrates the truth of your remark about scientific theories being temporary phenomena, but it is strange that so many young Earth creationists adhere to this exploded scientific theory.
This is more about theology rather than revelation, I am not a young earth creationist. Nor do I hold that any ideology will lead to a truth statement. One cannot first assume a truth, then proceed to the truth. Sounds very much like the blind leading the blind.
 
Upvote 0

JonFromMinnesota

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2015
2,171
1,608
Minnesota
✟60,266.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
It is not so much that the theory of evolution lacks the key evidence. It is more so, that the scientific pursuit is fast becoming so incredibly complex, that we don't even understand the results of the scientific experiments (Hadron Collider).

The evidence for evolution is beyond overwhelming. It is probably the most comprehensive, most tested theory in all of science. It has passed every test with flying colors. The experts that have performed the countless experiments understand them quite well.

If science makes any claim, then the onus is on science to prove the claim.

Science doesn't operate on trying to prove anything. Proven beyond a reasonable doubt is a better phrasing.

If science cannot prove evolution, then science cannot make the claim in the first place.

Evolution has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Genetics studies slammed that door shut a long time ago. Example? 99.9% of endogenous retrovirus insertions in the human genome insert in the exact same base pair in the chimpanzee genome. This is only possible if we share a common ancestor. This is irrefutable evidence.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,973
Alabama
✟509,426.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that all that can be learned from it is that there is a counterfeit theology here.

In order to have a counterfeit you must have the original.
Seeing as how evolution came second it must be a counterfeit of Creation.
In other words it is a Lie.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AV1611VET
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that all that can be learned from it is that there is a counterfeit theology here.

In order to have a counterfeit you must have the original.
Seeing as how evolution came second it must be a counterfeit of Creation.
In other words it is a Lie.

But it didn't. Evolution started roughly 3 billion years ago. Creationism is an extremely young myth compared to the reality of evolution. We have valid evidence for our acceptance of the theory of evolution. There is no valid evidence for creationism that I know of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that all that can be learned from it is that there is a counterfeit theology here.

In order to have a counterfeit you must have the original.
Seeing as how evolution came second it must be a counterfeit of Creation.
In other words it is a Lie.

Huh? :scratch:
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,973
Alabama
✟509,426.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
But it didn't. Evolution started roughly 3 billion years ago. Creationism is an extremely young myth compared to the reality of evolution. We have valid evidence for our acceptance of the theory of evolution. There is no valid evidence for creationism that I know of.

If you are a critical thinker and would like to evaluate evolution theology take a look at this six part series and then come back and let me know what you think.

141 - Science Is Just About Facts, Religion Is Just About Faith - Amazing Discoveries TV

WARNING YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING NEW
 
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,337
Sydney, Australia.
✟259,864.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Hello Steve.

Your wearing rose colored glasses.
Isn't it amazing how well this 'flawed' system has so brilliantly served the affairs of man down through his history....!?
You must be under a powerful delusion.

Science has enabled mankind to destroy our world. Nuclear weapons stand as the greatest mistake science has ever made.

Industrialization is turning the planet into a wasteland, Industrialization is built on scientific advances.

You have already been irradiated by Fukishima, all the nuclear tests world wide, have also contaminated the planet with radiation.
I suppose we have just been incredibly, incalculably lucky in all those advances we have made....!
No such thing as luck. The advances are slowly moving this planet beyond the point of no return. Take those glasses off and take a good hard look at the real world.

The human primate is a destructive creature, stop giving the primate, more and more power, to wreak havoc on this planet.
 
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,532
God's Earth
✟270,796.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Fourthly, of all those I have talked to here that have told me they deconverted, it has always been due to doctrinal issues or eureka moments in science; not the shenanigans pulled by others.

Most of the deconversion stories I hear are due to cite the hate and intolerance of certain Christians, for example against LGBT people, as a reason. So they come to the conclusion that all Christians are like that.

After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that all that can be learned from it is that there is a counterfeit theology here.

In order to have a counterfeit you must have the original.
Seeing as how evolution came second it must be a counterfeit of Creation.
In other words it is a Lie.

Going by that logic, Judaism is true and Christianity is false, because Judaism came first.
 
Upvote 0

JonFromMinnesota

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2015
2,171
1,608
Minnesota
✟60,266.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
If you are a critical thinker and would like to evaluate evolution theology take a look at this six part series and then come back and let me know what you think.

Evolution is not a theology. It is the foundation of biology. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution. It is literally impossible for a biomedical researcher to do their job without understanding evolution



Perhaps you should open a biology textbook or take a biology lab at your local community college. You might learn something. Nobody here is going to waste their time with another creationist site where their employees aren't allowed to use the scientific method. They are proven liars.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0