• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

About Jesus being the only way?

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,383
4,119
✟402,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I think we all can agree that Paul was not at all about a works based saving/righteousness, but yet he also came up with things to say like that is in 2 Corinthians 5:10 also? So was he contradicting his own beliefs?

God Bless.
No matter how one wishes to cut it, or how we state the matter, without good fruit that results from our continuing connection to the Vine, there’s no salvation as per John 15. And that includes the overcoming of sin. So, for example:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of Godare the children of God. Rom 8:12-14
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,828
5,569
46
Oregon
✟1,112,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
No matter how one wishes to cut it, or how we state the matter, without good fruit that results from our continuing connection to the Vine, there’s no salvation as per John 15. And that includes the overcoming of sin. So, for example:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of Godare the children of God. Rom 8:12-14
Truly just judgement might not be as simple as you're trying to make it out to be, and anybody with a half a brain/reasoning mind should already be able to know/fully discern that already, etc.

You may think it's always about others always trying to justify their inability to stop sinning 100% completely, or perfectly, but it isn't always, etc, and most certainly is not in my own case specifically, but is only about truly just judgement only, etc.

And in any truly just judgement, there are a lot (and many) factors that always need to be fully considered/factored in that are always beyond human knowledge/knowing, etc.

My conclusion is that there might be some things that God will hold against us or might hold us accountable for maybe, but also that He cannot judge us all by the standard of 100% absolute perfection either probably, etc, and that truly just judgement is always somewhere in-between each individually, or for every individual being, and that might not seem completely equal or fair or right or just to a lot of us initially, or at the start maybe, but that God at the judgement will show to us all 100% perfectly/completely, and until then we can't fully know it yet 100% fully/completely, or even anywhere close to that probably, is what I believe, etc.

God Bless.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,383
4,119
✟402,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Truly just judgement might not be as simple as you're trying to make it out to be, and anybody with a half a brain/reasoning mind should already be able to know/fully discern that already, etc.

You may think it's always about others always trying to justify their inability to stop sinning 100% completely, or perfectly, but it isn't always, etc, and most certainly is not in my own case specifically, but is only about truly just judgement only, etc.

And in any truly just judgement, there are a lot (and many) factors that always need to be fully considered/factored in that are always beyond human knowledge/knowing, etc.

My conclusion is that there might be some things that God will hold against us or might hold us accountable for maybe, but also that He cannot judge us all by the standard of 100% absolute perfection either probably, etc, and that truly just judgement is always somewhere in-between each individually, or for every individual being, and that might not seem completely equal or fair or right or just to a lot of us initially, or at the start maybe, but that God at the judgement will show to us all 100% perfectly/completely, and until then we can't fully know it yet 100% fully/completely, or even anywhere close to that probably, is what I believe, etc.

God Bless.
I didn’t say anything about absolute perfection in this life, even if sin will be completely triumphed over in the next. I’m speaking about the other side of the coin, about a judgement that should render one ineligible for heaven if they remained in or returned to wanton, persistent grave sin/deeds of the flesh, as Scripture clearly warns us about.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,828
5,569
46
Oregon
✟1,112,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
I didn’t say anything about absolute perfection in this life, even if sin will be completely triumphed over in the next. I’m speaking about the other side of the coin, about a judgement that should render one ineligible for heaven if they remained in or returned to wanton, persistent grave sin.
And who says what that absolutely is for each individual person without carefully considering or even being able to fully weigh any an all factors/facts that need to always be fully considered in any truly just judgement of an individual person exactly?

Because a lot of people think that's them, etc. Especially the much more "religous/spiritual" do always, etc.

I am saying there is no way for us to know right now, etc.

It's possible that some things could be held against us and there might be some varying consequences for that based on each individual person/judgement, but that some other things might not be either, etc.

Adding definitions like "deliberate", "wanton", etc, just makes/sets ourselves up as the judges, and not God, and God only, etc.

We are only commanded to love everybody, etc. Show everyone equal love, and kindness and compassion, and all of that, etc. And always just instantly and summarily judging people without accurate knowledge does not at all do that, etc.

Adding those kinds of definitions/terms like "deliberate" and "wanton" and whatnot, or whatever else you want to say or add, just sidesteps or covers up the issue/fact that we are making ourselves the judges (and juries and prosecutors and executors/eternal condemors, etc) which is not at all right for us to ever do ever, etc.

None of that is ever truly "Christian", etc.

But is of the Devil in my opinion, etc.

(I'm sorry if I seem to get too passionate about all of this, but it makes me very, very angry though, but just know that that anger is not directed at just only you specifically, ok, but only that you're just kinda triggering it right now, ok) (I don't at all hate you, ok).

God Bless.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,383
4,119
✟402,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
We are only commanded to love everybody, etc. Show everyone equal love, and kindness and compassion, and all of that, etc.
But that’s the point. Love, itself, opposes and overcomes sin. It’s the antidote or cure for sin, so to speak. And it also presupposes judgement. What happens if you don’t love? God, who knows and judges by the heart, and knows all the factors, can determine how well we’ve done at it, and how culpable we may be, but Jesus came to give us some Idea-that’s what revelation is all about, so that we’ll know, and be changed by it, by Him. He showed us what love is in no uncertain terms and beckons us to join Him in it. That love is both a gift of grace, and our choice to embrace and act upon it.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
31,549
10,431
NW England
✟1,353,329.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am saying there is no way for us to know right now, etc.
Know about what? Salvation?
If we didn't know we'd go through our lives in fear - "supposing I don't make it"? "Supposing I go go through all these trials, temptations, struggles etc and then God says, 'not good enough'?"
The Bible says that perfect loves drives out all fear, and John, for one, wrote because he wanted people to know.
It's possible that some things could be held against us
"love keeps no record of wrongs", 1 Corinthians 13:5.
"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us", 1 John 1:9.
We are only commanded to love everybody, etc. Show everyone equal love, and kindness and compassion, and all of that,
No one can do that with their own, human love - only if we have received God's perfect love.
I'm sorry if I seem to get too passionate about all of this, but it makes me very, very angry though,
Don't apologise for being passionate.
What makes you angry?
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,383
4,119
✟402,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
A contemporary teaching I'm familiar with- and appreciate, from a 16th century believer:

"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love*.

I guess if that's too strong a requirement then Christianity fails.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,828
5,569
46
Oregon
✟1,112,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Know about what? Salvation?
Judgement
If we didn't know we'd go through our lives in fear - "supposing I don't make it"? "Supposing I go go through all these trials, temptations, struggles etc and then God says, 'not good enough'?"
The Bible says that perfect loves drives out all fear, and John, for one, wrote because he wanted people to know.
Salvation might be assured for those put their faith/hope/trust/love in Jesus Christ, but a gain or loss of rewards isn't though, etc, and it's regretable to suffer loss, etc.
"love keeps no record of wrongs", 1 Corinthians 13:5.
"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us", 1 John 1:9.
I'm aware of that, but I do thank you though.
No one can do that with their own, human love - only if we have received God's perfect love.
Yes, thank you.
Don't apologise for being passionate.
What makes you angry?
Judgemental and hypocritical people who don't think, etc.

But, I probably shouldn't have taken it out on @fhansen though, because he might not be one of those maybe, etc.

So, I apologize to you @fhansen, ok.

God Bless.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,383
4,119
✟402,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Judgement

Salvation might be assured for those put their faith/hope/trust/love in Jesus Christ, but a gain or loss of rewards isn't though, etc, and it's regretable to suffer loss, etc.

I'm aware of that, but I do thank you though.

Yes, thank you.

Judgemental and hypocritical people who don't think, etc.

But, I probably shouldn't have taken it out on @fhansen though, because he might not be one of those maybe, etc.

So, I apologize to you @fhansen, ok.

God Bless.
No worries, you were just being judgemental, LOL . JK. But my main point was that the gospel isn't only about forgiveness of sin but also about the grace to begin to align ourselves with God's will, to His determination for each of us even if still imperfectly in this life.
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
24,828
5,569
46
Oregon
✟1,112,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
No worries, you were just being judgemental, LOL . JK.
Hey, at least I realized that you might not be one of those people or probably weren't one of those people, and said as much, and apologized, lol.

But, yeah, thanks though.

God Bless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0