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Why evolution should not be a religious issue

klutedavid

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So called "formal" definitions are not of much use in a scientific debate. For example the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of "theory" falls far short of the scientific definition of the term:

theory - definition of theory in English | Oxford Dictionaries

And though the theory of evolution will continue to be fine tuned over the years the odds of it ever failing are as close to zero as imaginable. There is no other scientific explanation in existence today.
Hello Sub Zone.

The formal definition is above the specific usage of the word within any ideology, regardless of the perceived importance of that ideology.

The Oxford Dictionary definition of the word, 'theory', a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something.

This is the primary meaning of the word, any ideology should endeavor to conform to the primary definition given above.

Science is itself an ideology, the basic idea that observing an event, will lead to an explanation of that event. That is a pure ideology, nothing more, nothing less. We lack the means to verify absolutely, whether observational data has any bearing on any truth statements formed to match the data.

Within the ideology of science, a scientific theory is a best fit explanation of the data. The simplest and most practical explanation of any data set (theory), this of course never implies that any scientific theory is a correct theory.

Thousands of observation can be lodged to support a theory, yet if one contradiction occurs, then the theory is redundant.

I see that you are a strong believer in the ideology.
And though the theory of evolution will continue to be fine tuned over the years the odds of it ever failing are as close to zero as imaginable.
Your statement is true, if and only if, the ideology of science is true. If the observational data is only a partial set of some expanded data set, then the theory will unfortunately be an invalid theory. I have no respect for any scientific theory, they are temporary phenomena at best.
 
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klutedavid

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Put your dictionary down and use your brain....

It is a fact that genetic information in a population will vary over time. That is known. It is a fact. The THEORY of evolution explains HOW that fact comes to be.
Hello Steve.

The dictionary definitions are the basis for communicating with each other, Steve.

Your statement is a generalization.
It is a fact that genetic information in a population will vary over time.
Are you including deep time in this statement. I thought that we only had a partial fossil record to observe. Your definitely one of those excited followers of the ideology of science.
 
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Astrophile

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Hello Sub Zone.

The formal definition is above the specific usage of the word within any ideology, regardless of the perceived importance of that ideology.

The Oxford Dictionary definition of the word, 'theory', a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something.

This is the primary meaning of the word, any ideology should endeavor to conform to the primary definition given above.

Science is itself an ideology, the basic idea that observing an event, will lead to an explanation of that event. That is a pure ideology, nothing more, nothing less. We lack the means to verify absolutely, whether observational data has any bearing on any truth statements formed to match the data.

Within the ideology of science, a scientific theory is a best fit explanation of the data. The simplest and most practical explanation of any data set (theory), this of course never implies that any scientific theory is a correct theory.

Thousands of observation can be lodged to support a theory, yet if one contradiction occurs, then the theory is redundant.

I see that you are a strong believer in the ideology.

Your statement is true, if and only if, the ideology of science is true. If the observational data is only a partial set of some expanded data set, then the theory will unfortunately be an invalid theory. I have no respect for any scientific theory, they are temporary phenomena at best.

I think that the problem is that you are comparing apples with oranges. The theory of evolution is a scientific theory, and it is, like all scientific theories, vulnerable to being disproved by new evidence.

However, the rival idea, namely the belief in supernatural creation by a God, is not a scientific theory, since there is no way in which it can be tested, nor can it be falsified, even in principle. God could have created the universe in six days, with varved sediments, fossils embedded in the rocks, white dwarf stars, supernova remnants, and all the other evidence of a long history, already present. There is no possible way of disproving this idea, therefore it is not a scientific theory.

If the theory of evolution were to be disproved, it would be replaced by a new scientific theory based on natural processes, equally vulnerable to disproof by new evidence, and, presumably, equally unacceptable to creationists. It would not be replaced by a theory of supernatural creation by a God. Thus, if the theory of evolution were to be disproved, creationists would still be in the same position that they are in now.

Of course, other scientific theories, such as the theories of electromagnetism, thermodynamics, stellar dynamics, and elementary particle physics, are just as susceptible to disproof by new evidence as the theory of evolution. Do you think that scientists ought to abandon these theories and adopt creationist or Biblical electromagnetism, thermodynamics, etc.?

The one part of modern young-Earth-creationism that is testable by the scientific method is flood geology, the belief that the sedimentary rocks, with their fossils, was deposited by Noah's flood. This hypothesis was conclusively disproved in about 1830, nearly 200 years ago. Scientifically, it is as dead as phlogiston theory and the theory that comets are phenomena in the Earth's atmosphere. This demonstrates the truth of your remark about scientific theories being temporary phenomena, but it is strange that so many young Earth creationists adhere to this exploded scientific theory.
 
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HitchSlap

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Personally, when YEC's misuse the definition of "theory," I tend to put them on the scale of scientific knowledge at 0.5/10. It's my litmus test, as it were, because they're demonstrating epic ignorance, and don't even know it. Then Dunning-Kruger effect takes over, and pontification commences regarding what "theory" in science really means.

Always good for the lulz.
 
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AV1611VET

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Personally, when YEC's misuse the definition of "theory," I tend to put them on the scale of scientific knowledge at 0.5/10.
What is a "pet theory"?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Hello Sub Zone.

The formal definition is above the specific usage of the word within any ideology, regardless of the perceived importance of that ideology.

Nope, that is pure nonsense on your part. In fact there is no such thing as an overarching "formal definition". For clear communication you merely must make sure that you are using the same definition that everyone else is.

The Oxford Dictionary definition of the word, 'theory', a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something.

This is the primary meaning of the word, any ideology should endeavor to conform to the primary definition given above.

Again, your comment does not make it so. Professionals develop better definitions for the words that they use most frequently. They don't make the error of imposing their better definition upon others, you should not try to impose your inferior definition on others. That is a double loss on your part.

Science is itself an ideology, the basic idea that observing an event, will lead to an explanation of that event. That is a pure ideology, nothing more, nothing less. We lack the means to verify absolutely, whether observational data has any bearing on any truth statements formed to match the data.

That is correct. But it still has far more support than your beliefs do. Why follow an inferior belief?


Within the ideology of science, a scientific theory is a best fit explanation of the data. The simplest and most practical explanation of any data set (theory), this of course never implies that any scientific theory is a correct theory.

It is much more than just that. A theory has to make predictions A theory has to be testable. A theory hast to pass those tests. You have shown that you do not understand what a theory is.

Thousands of observation can be lodged to support a theory, yet if one contradiction occurs, then the theory is redundant.

I think you meant to say "refuted". And that is not necessarily the case. Evidence can be "wrong". Almost all observations have error bars associated with them. That shows that evidence is not perfect either.

I see that you are a strong believer in the ideology.

Yes, that is because science works.

Your statement is true, if and only if, the ideology of science is true. If the observational data is only a partial set of some expanded data set, then the theory will unfortunately be an invalid theory. I have no respect for any scientific theory, they are temporary phenomena at best.

That only shows that you are being a hypocrite. When you rely on scientific theories every day of your life you should give them a bit more respect than that or perhaps you should consider not using the science that you do not understand and seem to hate.
 
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SteveB28

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Hello Steve.

The dictionary definitions are the basis for communicating with each other, Steve.

Your statement is a generalization.

Very immature understanding. Dictionaries provide definitions. Context provides meaning.

In the context of this discussion, the meaning of "fact" is something that is known, a piece of data. "Proven" has no place in a scientific consideration, unless you include mathematics as a science.

It is a FACT that genetic information within a population varies over time. We are able to observe this, both historically and in real time.

Are you including deep time in this statement.

Yes, but not limiting it to only that time frame.

I thought that we only had a partial fossil record to observe.

As much as you people would wish to confine the discussion, the fossil record is not the only means we have of tracing evolutionary change. I am sure you would dearly love to have the argument frozen in time at around the mid 19th Century. Your problem is that our understanding has advanced just a tad.

You may not have heard, but we now have this branch of science called genetics.....?

Your definitely one of those excited followers of the ideology of science.

"You're"

Depending upon your use of "ideology", I have no idea why you would consider this to be a negative trait....


.
 
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SteveB28

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Your statement is true, if and only if, the ideology of science is true. If the observational data is only a partial set of some expanded data set, then the theory will unfortunately be an invalid theory. I have no respect for any scientific theory, they are temporary phenomena at best.

Isn't it amazing how well this 'flawed' system has so brilliantly served the affairs of man down through his history....!?

I suppose we have just been incredibly, incalculably lucky in all those advances we have made....!


.
 
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HitchSlap

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Hello Steve.

The dictionary definitions are the basis for communicating with each other, Steve.

Your statement is a generalization.

Are you including deep time in this statement. I thought that we only had a partial fossil record to observe. Your definitely one of those excited followers of the ideology of science.
Speaking of Steve's, did you know that over 1,400 professional biologists named Steve all accept ToE?

So put that in your five creationists pipe and smoke it.

List of Steves | NCSE
 
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Renee Tahass

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Can it be supernaturally enhanced?
How would we know? can anyone see into the supernatural? if the supernatural affects the natural it automatically stops being the supernatural and becomes natural.
Anyway that's enough of this childish talk.
 
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AV1611VET

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How would we know?
Time would tell if DNA was altered.
Renee Tahass said:
can anyone see into the supernatural?
Not with his eyes.
Renee Tahass said:
if the supernatural affects the natural it automatically stops being the supernatural and becomes natural.
I disagree.

I think the supernatural and the natural can coexist in what the Bible calls the kingdom of Heaven.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Renee Tahass said:
Anyway that's enough of this childish talk.
Children talk like this, do they?
 
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Strathos

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Yes, agreed, and I already apologized to the OPer. It wasn't my intention to derail, nor to preach... But, in fairness, I made the case for believing in God as opposed to evolution

The thing is that they are not mutually exclusive!

Just leave a tract.

(Give 'em a Chick tract! ^_^)

I'm pretty sure those things have caused more deconversions than conversions.

Those subjects do not or at least need not directly contradict the Genesis account. To the extent that they do contradict it, to that extent they can be deemed atheistic.

People used to think heliocentrism was blasphemous because it contradicted their interpretation of certain parts of Scripture.

Where is that? a magic place?Children talk about magic and fantasy all the time, who else talks about magic and fantasy outside of the theatre or Disneyland?

If I were to elaborate on my own view of the distinction between miracles/the supernatural and nature, think of it like a computer program.

God is the programmer, He created all of the rules for how the universe normally behaves. But if He wants, He can also edit the code, and change the rules, allowing things to happen that normally would not be possible according to the programmed rules. That's the analogy I use for miracles.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm pretty sure those things have caused more deconversions than conversions.
I highly doubt that.

Someone who deconverts because of a Chick tract ... or any tract for that matter ... probably wasn't saved in the first place.
 
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HitchSlap

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I highly doubt that.

Someone who deconverts because of a Chick tract ... or any tract for that matter ... probably wasn't saved in the first place.
In this case saved = emotional response and deconversion = rational response, no?
 
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AV1611VET

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In this case saved = emotional response and deconversion = rational response, no?
If someone makes a profession of faith to me, and later sees a Chick tract and has a "stop the world and let me off" reaction; I'm going to wonder whether he got saved in the first place.

Why would someone give up all this:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


... as well as this ...

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


... as well as this ...

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

... for this:

i-160e6b705aeb4b8fbc3c58878e6d668a-chick3.jpg
 
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