Why do people blame calvinists ?

[Butch5]

You didn`t answer my questions, why am I obligated to answer yours?

You said you wanted to discuss it, yet when I ask you questions you don't answer. How is that discussing it?

 

[chad kincham]

continued:

VI. We attribute Eternity to this decree; because God does nothing in time, which He has not decreed to do from all eternity. For "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world:" (Acts xv. 18) and "He hath chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world." (Ephes. i. 4.) If it were otherwise, God might be charged with mutability.

VII. We say that the object or matter of predestination is two-fold—Divine things, and Persons to whom the communication of those Divine things has been predestinated by this decree. (1.) These Divine Things receive from the Apostle the general appellation of "spiritual blessings:" (Ephes. i. 3.) Such are, in the present life, justification, adoption as sons, (Rom. viii. 29, 30,) and the spirit of grace and adoption. (Ephes. i. 5; John i. 12; Gal. iv. 6, 7.) Lastly, after this life, eternal life. (John iii. 15, 16.) The whole of these things are usually comprised and enunciated, in the Divinity schools, by the names of Grace and Glory. (2.) We circumscribe the Persons within the limits of the word "believers," which presupposes sin: for no one believes on Christ except a sinner, and the man who acknowledges himself to be that sinner. (Matt. ix. 13; xi, 28.) Therefore, the plenitude of those blessings, and the preparation of them which has been made in Christ, were necessary for none but sinners. But we give the name of "believers," not to those who would be such by their own merits or strength, but to those who by the gratuitous and peculiar kindness of God would believe in Christ. (Rom. ix. 32; Gal. ii. 20; Matt. xi. 25; xiii, 11; John vi. 44; Phil. i. 29.)

VIII. The form is the decreed communication itself of these blessings to believers, and in the mind of God the pre-existent and pre-ordained relation and ordination of believers to Christ their Head: the fruit of which they receive through a real and actual union with Christ their Head. In the present life, this fruit is gracious, through the commencement and increase of the union; and in the life to come, it is glorious, through the complete consummation of this union. (2 Tim. i. 9, 10; John i. 16, 17; xvii, 11, 12, 22-24; Ephes. iv. 13, 15.)

IX. The end of predestination is the praise of the glorious grace of God: for since grace, or the gratuitous love of God in Christ, is the cause of predestination, it is equitable that to the same grace the entire glory of this act should be ceded. (Ephes. i. 6; Rom. xi. 36.)

X. But this decree of predestination is "according to election," as the Apostle says: (Rom. ix. 6, xi, ) This election necessarily infers reprobation. Reprobation therefore is opposed to predestination, as its contrary; and is likewise called "a casting away," (Rom. ix. 1,) "an ordination to condemnation," (Jude 4,) and "an appointment unto wrath." (1 Thess. v. 9.)

XI. From the law of contraries, we define reprobation to be a decree of the wrath, or of the severe will, of God; by which he resolved from all eternity to condemn to eternal death unbelievers, who, by their own fault and the just judgment of God, would not believe, for the declaration of his wrath and power. (John iii. 18; Luke vii. 30; John xii. 37 40; 2 Thess. ii. 10, 11; Rom. ix. 22.)

XII. Though by faith in Jesus Christ the remission of all sins is obtained, and sins are not imputed to them who believe; (Rom. iv. 2-11 yet the reprobate will be compelled to endure the punishment, not only of their unbelief, (by the contrary of which they might avoid the chastisement due to the rest of their sins,) but likewise of the sins which they have committed against the law, being "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (John viii. 24; ix, 41; 2 Thess. i. 9.)

XIII. To each of these decrees, that of predestination and that of reprobation, is subjoined its execution; the acts of which are performed in that order in which they have been appointed in and by the decree itself; and the objects both of the decree and of its execution are the same, and entirely uniform, or invested with the same formal relation. (Psalm cxv. 3; xxxiii, 9, 11.)

XIV. Great is the use of this doctrine, as thus delivered from the Scriptures. For it serves to establish the glory of the grace of God, to console afflicted consciences, to terrify the wicked and to drive away their security. (1.) But it establishes the grace of God, when it ascribes the whole praise of our vocation, justification, adoption, and glorification, to the mercy of God alone, and takes it entirely away from our own strength, works and merits. (Rom. viii. 29, 30; Ephes. 1.) (2.) It comforts afflicted consciences that are struggling with temptation, when it renders them assured of the gracious good will of God in Christ, which was from all eternity decreed to them, performed in time, and which will endure forever. (Isa. liv. 8.) It also shews, that the purpose of God according to election stands firm, not of works, but of Him that calleth. (1 Cor. i. 9; Rom. ix. 11.) (3.) It is capable of terrifying the ungodly; because it teaches, that the decree of God concerning unbelievers is irrevocable; (Heb. iii. 11, 17- 19 and that "they who do not obey the truth, but believe a lie," are to be adjudged to eternal destruction. (2 Thess. ii. 12.)

XV. This doctrine therefore ought to resound, not only within private walls and in schools, but also in the assemblies of the saints and in the church of God. Yet one caution ought to be strictly observed, that nothing be taught concerning it beyond what the Scriptures say, that it be propounded in the manner which the Scriptures have adopted, and that it be referred to the same end as that which the Scriptures propose when they deliver it. This, by the gracious assistance of God, we think, we have done. "Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen!"

"The power of God is great, but it obtains glory from the humble. Do not inconsiderately seek out the things that are too hard for thee; neither foolishly search for things which surpass thy powers. But meditate with reverence upon those things which God has commanded thee: for it is not requisite for thee to see with thine eyes those things which are secret. Do not curiously handle those matters which are unprofitable and unnecessary to thy discourse: for more things are shewn unto thee, than the human understanding can comprehend. Ecclesiasticus iii. 20-23. Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

You can argue all day long about the state of fallen man before salvation, but the undeniable fact is that faith comes by hearing the word of God - not by first being zapped with irresistible grace, and regenerated, but by hearing the gospel.

This means that the Holy Spirit that is the one that draws men unto Jesus and convicts them of their sin, sufficiently enlightens the unconverted enough when they hear the word of God, to believe and have faith.

Then they have freewill to either receive Jesus, per John 1:12, or to reject Jesus, as the elect nation of Israel, who Jesus came for, did in John 1:11.

The Holy Spirit is resistible - there’s no irresistible grace, but there is freewill.

Stephen told the Jews, the very people who rejected Jesus and crucified Him, (though they were His own, whom He came for John 1:11) that the reason they killed the prophets sent to them, and rejected and killed Jesus, is because they RESISTED THE HOLY SPIRIT.

No man can say Jesus is Lord, without the Holy Spirit drawing them - yet the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

It’s a freewill choice to accept the drawing of the Holy Spirit or to resist Him.

After He sufficiently enlightens those who hear the word of God enough to have faith, they can accept or reject Jesus.

 

[chad kincham]

Really? Can you reconcile these passages?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Matt. 22:44 KJV)

(I apologize for duplicate posts. I’m using an iPad, and every browser I try crashes when I post, and the post disappears. Sometimes they show up later, after I reposted, so there’s duplicate posts. If there’s a way to erase a post, I haven’t found it yet.)

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64 KJV)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:19 KJV)

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55-56 KJV)

Please, reconcile these passages with the ones you posted. You see, you're proving my point. People just take passages they want and ignore the rest. If you're open minded you'll seek to reconcile them, if not you won't.

If you can't reconcile them all, you have something wrong.

Jesus is God the word, and the risen Christ is a divine spirit that rose in an immortal body, yet His divine spirit is omnipresent at the same time.

That means Jesus has both a physical presence limited to one location at a time, such as sitting at the right hand of the Father, and an omnipresent spiritual presence everywhere, at all times.

Jesus said He stands at the door of our hearts, knocking at the door, desiring to come in and be with us.

Ephesians 3:17 says He dwells in our hearts by faith.

Paul also wrote that it’s a mystery of God that Jesus is IN us, in Colossians 1:27

 

[Butch5]

He did. You didn`t read?

No, he gave a couple of passages of Scripture. He didn't explain how they support what he said. Christians do that often. They just post a passage and assume you understand it the same way they do. I can pretty much guarantee that he and I don't understand that passage the same way.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus is God the word, and the risen Christ is a divine spirit that rose in an immortal body, yet His divine spirit is omnipresent at the same time.

That means Jesus has both a physical presence limited to one location at a time, such as sitting at the right hand of the Father, and an omnipresent spiritual presence everywhere, at all times.

Jesus said He stands at the door of our hearts, knocking at the door, desiring to come in and be with us.

Ephesians 3:17 says He dwells in our hearts by faith.

Paul also wrote that it’s a mystery of God that Jesus is IN us, in Colossians

Yes, you said that. I asked you support it with Scripture. You said Jesus is a divine spirit. Jesus said,

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:39 KJV)

According to Jesus, He wasn't a spirit.

 

[chad kincham]

Yes, you said that. I asked you support it with Scripture. You said Jesus is a divine spirit. Jesus said,

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:39 KJV)

According to Jesus, He wasn't a spirit.

And yet your reply ignores the fact that He’s the divine spirit of God, who is also indwelling an immortal resurrected body.

Scripture says God is what? A SPIRIT. John 4:24

Before His incarnation as a man, God the Word was, and still is, a spirit.

What did you think? That He didn’t exist as the divine Spirit before becoming a man?

Who do you think Jesus was, before the Father made a body for Him to be born in?

Are you denying Jesus is God the logos, the second person in the triune Godhead?

 

[RickReads]

You said you wanted to discuss it, yet when I ask you questions you don't answer. How is that discussing it?

It`s not but you seem opposite of open mind.

i.e. you ask Chad for scripture and he had posted some that are almost verbatum to his remark.

If you can`t grasp what Chad`s verses say I doubt you would accept my explainations either.

i.e. the Steven verse, Jesus is standing not sitting in a chair.

Do you realize that has prophetic meaning?

 

[Butch5]

And yet your reply ignores the fact that He’s the divine spirit of God, who is also indwelling an immortal resurrected body.

Scripture says God is what? A SPIRIT. John 4:24

Before His incarnation as a man, God the Word was, and still is, a spirit.

What did you think? That He didn’t exist as the divine Spirit before becoming a man?

Who do you think Jesus was, before the Father made a body for Him to be born in?

Are you denying Jesus is God the logos, the second person in the triune Godhead?

Nope, you've got to look at all of Scripture.

5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
(Phil. 2:5-7 ASV)

Paul says that being in the form of God Jesus emptied Himself and became like man. He emptied Himself and became man. Thus His statement a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have. Again, you say Jesus is a spirit, according to Jesus He isn't.

 

[RickReads]

Nope, you've got to look at all of Scripture.

5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
(Phil. 2:5-7 ASV)

Paul says that being in the form of God Jesus emptied Himself and became like man. He emptied Himself and became man. Thus His statement a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have. Again, you say Jesus is a spirit, according to Jesus He isn't.

Then again,

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Stop denying and reconcile.

 

[Butch5]

It`s not but you seem opposite of open mind.

i.e. you ask Chad for scripture and he had posted some that are almost verbatum to his remark.

If you can`t grasp what Chad`s verses say I doubt you would accept my explainations either.

i.e. the Steven verse, Jesus is standing not sitting in a chair.

Do you realize that has prophetic meaning?

And, as I said, I'd bet his understanding of those verses and mine would be different. As you can see, he thinks Jesus "is" a spirit. I don't. Jesus said He wasn't. Now, if we bring this understanding to the passages that you posted. It would suggest that when two or three are gathered Jesus' spirit is there. If that is how one interprets those passages it creates a problem as Jesus said He wasn't a spirit. If He isn't a spirit, what does it mean that He is with them? How is He with them if He isn't a spirit? Can they see and touch Him? Can they hand Him their Bible?

One's preconceptions make a world of difference as to how one understands Scripture. So, without any elaboration I don't know what one believes.

 

[Butch5]

Then again,

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Stop denying and reconcile.

Interesting, you still haven't addressed the original verses and here you're demanding it of others. I'll tell you what, reconcile the ones I posted and I'll reconcile this one. It's easy enough to do.

But I will ask you, what is a quickening breath?

 

[chad kincham]

The vision of Steven is significant. When Steven saw Jesus He was standing up. This idea that Jesus has spent the last 2000 years sitting in a chair is something I have never understood.

Sitting at the Fathers right hand represents Jesus’ power and authority- or something like that.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

And, as I said, I'd bet his understanding of those verses and mine would be different. As you can see, he thinks Jesus "is" a spirit. I don't. Jesus said He wasn't. Now, if we bring this understanding to the passages that you posted. It would suggest that when two or three are gathered Jesus' spirit is there. If that is how one interprets those passages it creates a problem as Jesus said He wasn't a spirit. If He isn't a spirit, what does it mean that He is with them? How is He with them if He isn't a spirit? Can they see and touch Him? Can they hand Him their Bible?

One's preconceptions make a world of difference as to how one understands Scripture. So, without any elaboration I don't know what one believes.

Good point.

What proves the duality, that He both has a physical body, and is an omnipresent spirit, is that Jesus dwells in our hearts, Eph 3:17, and that Jesus is IN us Colossians 1:27.

I should’ve mentioned that to him.

 

[RickReads]

And, as I said, I'd bet his understanding of those verses and mine would be different. As you can see, he thinks Jesus "is" a spirit. I don't. Jesus said He wasn't. Now, if we bring this understanding to the passages that you posted. It would suggest that when two or three are gathered Jesus' spirit is there. If that is how one interprets those passages it creates a problem as Jesus said He wasn't a spirit. If He isn't a spirit, what does it mean that He is with them? How is He with them if He isn't a spirit? Can they see and touch Him? Can they hand Him their Bible?

One's preconceptions make a world of difference as to how one understands Scripture. So, without any elaboration I don't know what one believes.

The verses I quoted are just the tip of the iceburg. There are Godhead verses throughout the Bible and it`s quite a fun Biblical mystery to try and unravel.

Your study technique that you described in your first post is a good one. I found it necessary is to be willing to put aside my beliefs and let the challenge of opposing views hit me as though I knew nothing about the gospel. To let the words of God affirm or disprove what I was being confronted with. To be objective, always seeking the Spirit to guide my path and give me insight. To be like the Beareans in Acts 17.

 

[RickReads]

Good point.

What proves the duality, that He both has a physical body, and is an omnipresent spirit, is that Jesus dwells in our hearts, Eph 3:17, and that Jesus is IN us Colossians 1:27.

I should’ve mentioned that to him.

You did ok. Minor mistake really.

 

[RickReads]

Sitting at the Fathers right hand represents Jesus’ power and authority- or something like that.

Shalom.

It`s a figurative of the government of Jesus and fulfillment of Psalm 110.

It`s not literal. If it was literal then we would be looking at two gods.

 

[Butch5]

Good point.

What proves the duality, that He both has a physical body, and is an omnipresent spirit, is that Jesus dwells in our hearts, Eph 3:17, and that Jesus is IN us Colossians 1:27.

I should’ve mentioned that to him.

Or maybe Paul is using metaphors. How can Jesus be in all of these hearts if He is flesh and bones as He said? He said He wasn't a spirit so He can't be an omnipresent spirit. He said He was flesh and Bone. The apostle John too, says that He is flesh and bone.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

Here the word translated come, is a perfect tense participle. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. What John is saying is that Christ came in the flesh and was still in the flesh when John wrote the letter.

 

[chad kincham]

Taking the philosophical approach to salvation and not basing it on scripture is going to produce non-Christian examples.

That is the problem with using these types of carnal stories in an attempt to illustrate how the holy God relates to his creation.

On the contrary, it’s an excellent parable, which was a tool Jesus used to teach truth by using an analogy.

It shows why freewill doesn’t mean the lost saves themselves, which is YOUR carnal claim, that isn’t found in the scriptures- but freewill IS found there.

Shalom.

 

[RickReads]

Interesting, you still haven't addressed the original verses and here you're demanding it of others. I'll tell you what, reconcile the ones I posted and I'll reconcile this one. It's easy enough to do.

But I will ask you, what is a quickening breath?

It`s a reference to the 1st resurrection. The Holy Spirit will resurrect, another proof He is the Spirit of Christ. Christ is the second Adam.

 

[RickReads]

Or maybe Paul is using metaphors. How can Jesus be in all of these hearts if He is flesh and bones as He said? He said He wasn't a spirit so He can't be an omnipresent spirit. He said He was flesh and Bone. The apostle John too, says that He is flesh and bone.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

Here the word translated come, is a perfect tense participle. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. What John is saying is that Christ came in the flesh and was still in the flesh when John wrote the letter.

The body of Jesus is celestial after the Ressurection. I`m not sure why this is such an issue for you.

What is your belief regarding the Holy Spirit?