Why do people blame calvinists ?

[StillGods]

Amen and as a result Mike is completely responsible for his actions and has no excuse for refusing to repent. In Calvin’s theology Mike is incapable of repentance because God has not made him capable which utterly makes God responsible for Mike’s refusal to repent. God created Mike and set His expectations knowing that Mike would never possibly be capable of meeting them. So when Mike goes before God on judgement day and God asks him why he didn’t repent Mike will say because you didn’t allow me to. Then God will burn Mike for all eternity.

yes, this is why to me personally Calvinism is not in line with God's character.
why create Mike at all knowing that would be the outcome and Mike had no way out.

But God has created the way for anyone and everyone to come to Him should they choose to accept it - Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, anyone who comes to Him He does not turn away.... but we have to come to Him - we have a part to play in that, we have a choice to make.

John 6:37, NIV: "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

what i find interesting in the above verse, is that i personally see there are three parts to it, in any version of this verse there seem to be three parts.
1. All those the Father gives me will come to me - the Father gives the enabling to any and all people He created.
2. and whoever comes to me - we have a choice whether to use that enabling to come to Him or not, this is our part to play, to choose Jesus or not.
3. I will never drive away - if we do choose to come to Him and accept Jesus, then He will accept us in His family forever.

so the enabling is given to us, we can then choose whether we use that enabling or not, if we do choose Jesus we are saved, if not sadly we are not saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

As previously stated from the Scriptures (in the following), without the Holy Spirit, no one wants to believe in him:

"the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him" (1 Corthinians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

That verse does not say “the man without the Spirit”. What Bible version are you using, because the words “without the Spirit” are nowhere in that verse?

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:14-16‬

Notice what Paul says right after this.


“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭

Paul specifically states that he could not talk to them as if they were “Spiritual people” because they were still carnal, they are still controlled by their sinful nature and yet he still says that they believed the gospel.

And again, the Holy Spirit had been given to them in the same manner as he was given to the apostles without signs in John 20:22 before Jesus' death, but had not yet been given to them in that eminent, plentiful and general effusion promised in Joel 2:28 and fulfilled in Acts 2 at Pentecost, where the apostles were likewise given the Holy Spirit, in addition to John 20:22.

Now your directly contradicting the scriptures. Your saying that the Holy Spirit had been given to them when the scriptures specifically state that the Holy Spirit had not been given to them.

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬


I can’t believe that you refuse to accept this even after reading it directly from the scriptures. You’ve just overruled the scriptures to hold on to your doctrines.

You think the apostles didn’t believe until John 20? Jesus had already said they weren’t of this world in John 16 and John 17. They didn’t need the Holy Spirit to teach them because they were already being taught by Christ. Look what Paul says about people who are of the world, I just quoted it above.

I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world.

The apostles were already Spiritual people before John 20 because they had the guidance of Christ. They were already being taught by God because of Christ’s words. Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The gospel has the power to elicit a response because it is the word of God hence those who receive it are taught by God.

 

[Clare73]

That verse does not say “the man without the Spirit”. What Bible version are you using, because the words “without the Spirit” are nowhere in that verse?

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Paul contrasts the natural man (unregenerate) with the spiritual man (regenerate).

natural man = not born again = without the Holy Spirit = 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV).

But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:14-16‬

Notice what Paul says right after this.


“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us.”

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭
Paul specifically states that he could not talk to them as if they were “Spiritual people” because they were still carnal, they are still controlled by their sinful nature and yet he still says that they believed the gospel.

The rebirth by the Holy Spirit doesn't transplant the particularly sinful Corinthians out of their sinful habits into complete holiness. There is a process of sanctification through obedience to take place, but that does't mean they aren't reborn.

Now your directly contradicting the scriptures. Your saying that the Holy Spirit had been given to them when the scriptures specifically state that
the Holy Spirit had not been given to them.

There are two kinds of "giving" of the Holy Spirit, with (Acts 2:6) and without (John 20:22) outward manifestation.

AT the origin of the church, the born again of the Holy Spirit could also receive another gifting of the Spirit accompanied with remarkable outward manifestations, as we see with the apostles, where they received the Holy Spirit from Jesus in John 20:22 before he was glorifed, and then again received the Holy Spirit with special empowerment on Pentecost.

Reference to those who "had not been given the Holy Spirit" is to the Spirit being given with outward manifestation (Pentecost), because per John 7:39--"the Spirit is not given until Jesus is glorified," however, we see in John 20:22 the Holy Spirit being given before Jesus was glorified. So what is "not given until Jesus is glorified" (John 7:39) is referring to the giving of Pentecost with much outward manifestation.

So the question, "Have you received the Holy Spirit?" and statements such as "the Holy Spirit had not been given to them" are referring to receiving the Spirit with outward manifestion, as in Acts 8:14-18, 10:46-48, 11:15, 15:8, 19:6, and not as he was given to the apostles in John 20:22, where no outward manifestation is mentioned. The point being that "having not received the Holy Spirit" is not referring to no reception of the Spirit, but to receiving the Spirit with outward manifestation.

Also note that receiving the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 did not prevent them from receiving him again on Pentecost.

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for
the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬
I can’t believe that you refuse to accept this even after reading it directly from the scriptures. You’ve just overruled the scriptures to hold on to your doctrines.

Or perhaps there is more to take into consideration than you are aware of.

You think the apostles didn’t believe until John 20? Jesus had already said they weren’t of this world in John 16 and John 17. They didn’t need the Holy Spirit to teach them because they were already being taught by Christ. Look what Paul says about people who are of the world, I just quoted it above

We don't know how many infusions of the Holy Spirit were granted to the apostles, but we do know of more than one, John 20:22 as well as Pentecost.

Keeping in mind that origins--of the human race, of the church--are not the norm.
Adam's origin is not the norm for humans, and the reception of the Spirit with effusive manifestations, as well as in addition to a previous reception, as occurred at the origin of the church, are not the norm for receiving the Holy Spirit; i.e., giving the rebirth.

I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world.

The apostles were already Spiritual people before John 20 because they had the guidance of Christ. They were already being taught by God because of Christ’s words. Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
The gospel has the power to elicit a response because it is the word of God hence
those who receive it are taught by God.

The operative phrase being "those who receive it," and the nature of which is explained in
1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The rebirth by the Holy Spirit doesn't transplant the particularly sinful Corinthians out of their sinful habits into complete holiness. There is a process of sanctification through obedience to take place, but that does't mean they aren't reborn.

I completely agree which was my whole point. You used 1 Corinthians 2:14 as an example of people who did had not received the Holy Spirit which is not what Paul was saying at all. New Christians don’t all the sudden have this flood of knowledge as soon as they receive the Holy Spirit, there’s a learning curve in which they will slowly begin to understand the things of the Spirit. Obviously no one receives the Holy Spirit one day and is fully ready to start teaching a seminary school. So now that we’ve established that the Corinthians had already received the Holy Spirit you can stop quoting 1 Corinthians 2:14 as if it were referring to people who had not received Him.

As previously stated from the Scriptures (in the following), without the Holy Spirit, no one wants to believe in him:

"the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him" (1 Corthinians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.

The rebirth by the Holy Spirit doesn't transplant the particularly sinful Corinthians out of their sinful habits into complete holiness. There is a process of sanctification through obedience to take place, but that does't mean they aren't reborn.

Your still maintaining the the apostles had not received the Holy Spirit until John 20 when I just pointed out that Jesus said in John 15 and John 17 that they were not of this world. They believed that Jesus is the Son of God in Matthew 16. The apostles believed in Christ long before John 20. Your saying that they couldn’t possibly believe in Christ until after He was resurrected. You are really struggling to confirm your theology to coincide with the scriptures. Anyone who says that the apostles didn’t or couldn’t believe in Christ until after His resurrection clearly cannot discern the gospel.

 

[Clare73]

I completely agree which was my whole point. You used 1 Corinthians 2:14 as an example

I used 1 Corinthias 2:14 as demonstration that no one accepts the things that come from the Holy Spirit without having the Holy Spirit and, therefore, because the apostles did accept the things that came from Jesus they, therefore, had the Holy Spirit.

of people who did had not received the Holy Spirit which is not what Paul was saying at all.

That is precisely what Paul was saying. . ."no one without the Holy Spirit accepts the things that come from the Holy Spirit."
Paul is not talking about new Christians. New Christians have the Holy Spirit, or they are not Christians.

Paul is talking about the natural man; i.e., the man without the Spirit, he is not talking about the "flesh."
Christians are not natural (sinful) man, they are spiritual (regenerate) man, no matter how new they are, nor how many sinful habits they come into faith with. If they continue in those sinful habits with no spiritual growth, then they are "in the flesh," but "in the flesh" does not mean they are natural (unregenerate) man. They are still spiritual (regenerate) man living according to "the flesh."

natural man = sinful unregenerate (not born again) nature
spiritual man = spiritual regenerate (born again) nature
in the flesh = living according to the sinful nature rather than the spiritual nature

Now, if those new Christians continue to live according to "the flesh" with no spiritual growth, then they give evidence of not really having been born again and not having true faith, of being tares instead of wheat.

New Christians don’t all the sudden have this flood of knowledge as soon as they receive the Holy Spirit, there’s a learning curve in which they will slowly begin to understand the things of the Spirit. Obviously no one receives the Holy Spirit one day and is fully ready to start teaching a seminary school. So now that we’ve established that the Corinthians had already received the Holy Spirit you can stop quoting 1 Corinthians 2:14 as if it were referring to people who had not received Him.

Your still maintaining the the apostles had not received the Holy Spirit until John 20 when I just pointed out that Jesus said in John 15 and John 17 that they were not of this world. They believed that Jesus is the Son of God in Matthew 16. The apostles believed in Christ long before John 20. Your saying that they couldn’t possibly believe in Christ until after He was resurrected.

I'm saying they would not have received the things Jesus said if they did not have the Spirit.
I am saying that they had the Spirit before Jesus was resurrected.

And I am saying that "they had not yet received the Holy Spirit" refers to receiving the Holy Spirit with the remarkable manifestations at Pentecost, and does not refer to receiving the Holy Spirit otherwise, as in John 20:22.

You are really struggling to confirm your theology to coincide with the scriptures. Anyone who says that the apostles didn’t or couldn’t believe in Christ until after His resurrection clearly cannot discern the gospel.

Which has nothing to do with me.
Are you struggling to misunderstand/misrepresent my point?

And Paul may take issue with your characterization of his teaching as "my theology," i.e., that "the natural man (who has not received the Holy Spirit, as opposed to the spiritual man who has received the Holy Spirit) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit, he cannot understand them for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14), and he wants no part of it.
And no one is a carve out to that spiritual fact, including the apostles.

You have no Biblical warrant for maintaining that the apostles were without the Holy Spirit before John 20:22. . .or that anyone without the Holy Spirit accepts and receives the things that come from God.