Why do people blame calvinists ?

Butch5

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Jesus is not a created being, He is God the word, from John 1:1, who incarnated as a man, but was God First, and always.

John 1 goes on to say that God the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and that He created the world He was born into.

Here is proof Jesus has a spirit, and that He dwells in us.

In fact it shows the Trinity indwells believers:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be IN you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Of course Jesus has a spirit or breath in Him. Every man does. It is the breath or spirit of life. Saying Jesus has a spirit in Him is different than saying Jesus is a spirit. But again, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. The spirit of Christ is the spirit from Christ which is the Holy Spirit. What did He say to the apostles?

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (Jn. 15:26 KJV)

Jesus told the apostles that He would send the Spirit to them. Paul goes on to say that God gives the spirit to all believers.
 
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Butch5

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20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

This tells me what the Bible means by celestial. It doesn't tell me how you understand the word. That you won't simply say what it means to you actually speaks volumes.
 
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chad kincham

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My position on John 6:44 is that it applied to those people in Jesus' day. It's not a statement to all mankind. No one can come to Jesus unless He is on earth.

You seem to deny the spiritual.

We do come to Jesus. We as believers sit in heaven with Jesus. Ephesians 2:6

That’s because the new covenant is a marriage, and as the bride of Christ, we become as one with Jesus in marriage, and it’s a spiritual union. Romans 7:4

This is how we become the body of Christ - the two cleave together and become as one in marriage.

So we do come to Jesus while He is bodily in heaven at the Father’s right hand - spiritually- our spirit and His.

You mentioned a celestial body, that’s a Mormon term, isn’t it?
 
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chad kincham

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Of course Jesus has a spirit or breath in Him. Every man does. It is the breath or spirit of life. Saying Jesus has a spirit in Him is different than saying Jesus is a spirit. But again, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. The spirit of Christ is the spirit from Christ which is the Holy Spirit. What did He say to the apostles?

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (Jn. 15:26 KJV)

Jesus told the apostles that He would send the Spirit to them. Paul goes on to say that God gives the spirit to all believers.

Your comments are pointing to the denial that Jesus is the second person in the Godhead, because as God, He IS an eternal spirit, and when He incarnated in a human body, His spirit didn’t go on vacation - it indwelled the mortal flesh body.
 
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RickReads

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Your comments are pointing to the denial that Jesus is the second person in the Godhead, because as God, He IS an eternal spirit, and when He incarnated in a human body, His spirit didn’t go on vacation - it indwelled the mortal flesh body.

I thought that as well but when I had a look at his other posts that doesn`t seem to be the case. He seems to have a problem believing that Jesus was speaking to Gentiles. He insists Jesus was only talking to the Jews who were there listening to Him. He appears to have some issue with Holy Spirit verses as well. I`m having a hard time figuring out where he gets his beliefs from.
 
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Mark Quayle

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When James Arminius (Arminianism) believes the same thing with total depravity, free will and predestination ?
What Jacobus (aka Jacob aka James) Arminius believed and taught is not precisely the same thing as what became Arminianism, but it allowed for it and produced it.
Most Arminians reconcile human free will with God's sovereignty and foreknowledge by holding three points: Human free will is limited by original sin, though God's prevenient grace restores to humanity the ability to accept God's call of salvation.
Works: Classical Arminianism
Founders: Jacobus Arminius

So it's all a big smokescreen that ends with being Pelagianism dressed in twisted bible cliches.
There it is: Arminius himself may not have said it, but he provided for it to be said, as:
"Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation." --In which, a person's eternal destiny hinges on his choice and not God's. "Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation." --either Arminius agrees with this abomination, or Arminianism contradicts Arminius.
Calvinism and Arminianism comparison
 
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mlepfitjw

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@Jesus is YHWH Calvinism is just a belief system.

And people can be dogmatic about it, almost like the KKK regime.

Though there are always cases of people on the extreme right, and extreme left.

Guess the only thing a human can do in this life, is make the best out of each and every situation by living with the spirit that resides in them due to their belief.

Being gone away from this site for over a month, I already know God got me in the position, that fighting over belief systems is just a manmade mess of differences.

And many people love to debate and bicker, God knows I use to love the feeling of dopamine thinking I put some one in their place... though grieved the spirit when realizing my wrongs.

So believe, and love while you can... it seems about all there really is to life...
 
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RickReads

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@Jesus is YHWH Calvinism is just a belief system.

And people can be dogmatic about it, almost like the KKK regime.

Though there are always cases of people on the extreme right, and extreme left.

Guess the only thing a human can do in this life, is make the best out of each and every situation by living with the spirit that resides in them due to their belief.

Being gone away from this site for over a month, I already know God got me in the position, that fighting over belief systems is just a manmade mess of differences.

And many people love to debate and bicker, God knows I use to love the feeling of dopamine thinking I put some one in their place... though grieved the spirit when realizing my wrongs.

So believe, and love while you can... it seems about all their really is to life...

You got it right. Excellant post, thxs.
 
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chad kincham

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You seem to deny the spiritual.

We do come to Jesus. We as believers sit in heaven with Jesus. Ephesians 2:6

That’s because the new covenant is a marriage, and as the bride of Christ, we become as one with Jesus in marriage, and it’s a spiritual union. Romans 7:4

This is how we become the body of Christ - the two cleave together and become as one in marriage.

So we do come to Jesus while He is bodily in heaven at the Father’s right hand - spiritually- our spirit and His.
 
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RickReads

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@Jesus is YHWH Calvinism is just a belief system.

And people can be dogmatic about it, almost like the KKK regime.

Though there are always cases of people on the extreme right, and extreme left.

Guess the only thing a human can do in this life, is make the best out of each and every situation by living with the spirit that resides in them due to their belief.

Being gone away from this site for over a month, I already know God got me in the position, that fighting over belief systems is just a manmade mess of differences.

And many people love to debate and bicker, God knows I use to love the feeling of dopamine thinking I put some one in their place... though grieved the spirit when realizing my wrongs.

So believe, and love while you can... it seems about all there really is to life...

In Israel at the time of Jesus it was a custom for scholars to get together at the temple and debate the Torah. Jesus Himself is recorded to have participated at the age of 12 in Luke 2.

I think these ancient discussions got quite heated given the violent tendancies of the religeous leaders of that time.

I like to think that the tradition is the same among us in places like this. I might pen whip somebody in a forum such as this but I love all Christians who love the Lord. God knows my heart that this is so.
 
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chad kincham

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I thought that as well but when I had a look at his other posts that doesn`t seem to be the case. He seems to have a problem believing that Jesus was speaking to Gentiles. He insists Jesus was only talking to the Jews who were there listening to Him. He appears to have some issue with Holy Spirit verses as well. I`m having a hard time figuring out where he gets his beliefs from.

Jesus did come originally for the Jews only, and I believe it’s either Pauline dispies or mid Acts dispies that believe Jesus offered the kingdom only to the Jews, and offered plan B to the gentiles.

In reality Jesus offered the kingdom to both.
 
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mlepfitjw

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In Israel at the time of Jesus it was a custom for scholars to get together at the temple and debate the Torah. Jesus Himself is recorded to have participated at the age of 12 in Luke 2.

I think these ancient discussions got quite heated given the violent tendancies of the religeous leaders of that time.

I like to think that the tradition is the same among us in places like this. I might pen whip somebody in a forum such as this but I love all Christians who love the Lord. God knows my heart that this is so.

Thank you for sharing. Rick.

Imagine the look on the Pharisee that heard Jesus say that He would sit on the right hand of his Father, right? And he rent his clothes...

You are so right about back then in that day, of Israel... You know near the end of Jerusalem for the second time their was aborrent distractions, and stumbling blocks... There was so much going on back then considering the times and conditions and let alone God had sent his son into a war zone, all for the redemption of the whole world.

I believe that the traditions you speak of have carried through time, and will always be around forever.

Those who realize these aspects are open mind towards the ability of the Goodness of God, and are able to share the love that comes from God by the spirit which resides in them.
 
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Jesus did come originally for the Jews only, and I believe it’s either Pauline dispies or mid Acts dispies that believe Jesus offered the kingdom only to the Jews, and offered plan B to the gentiles.

In reality Jesus offered the kingdom to both.

I believe Israel fell when Steven was stoned. In Acts 10 we see a Gentile salvation apart from Israel for the first time. The conversion of Paul instituted the change to God`s program which was and is salvation without joining the nation of Israel.
 
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chad kincham

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Who is the Theophany of the Old Testament? That question would make a good thread.

I believe Jesus as God can traverse time, which is the fourth dimension, and that every time that God in form of a man appears in the OT, it’s Jesus.

He appeared to Moses face to face and talked to him as a man talks to a friend.

In Genesis 18:1 YHWH appears as one of three men, Abraham washes His feet.

In Genesis 19, YHWH on earth, rains down fire and brimstone from YHWH in heaven.

Etc.
 
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mlepfitjw

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I believe Jesus as God can traverse time, which is the fourth dimension, and that every time that God in form of a man appears in the OT, it’s Jesus.

He appeared to Moses face to face and talked to him as a man talks to a friend.

In Genesis 18:1 YHWH appears as one of three men, Abraham washes His feet.

In Genesis 19, YHWH on earth, rains down fire and brimstone from YHWH in heaven.

Etc.

Never heard of that before but that seems really interesting Chad. I have no problem with your belief.

I disagree with Jesus ever being in OT, because it was GODS WORD, that was in the OT, then the word later became flesh named Jesus, in the NT. ~ ~ ~ That is just my thoughts on that subject Chad.

Me saying Jesus Christ is God, doesn't save me.

I believe that faith through grace saves us.
 
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chad kincham

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I believe Israel fell when Steven was stoned. In Acts 10 we see a Gentile salvation apart from Israel for the first time. The conversion of Paul instituted the change to God`s program which was and is salvation without joining the nation of Israel.

I believe it was later, in Acts 13:

Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying,I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
 
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When James Arminius (Arminianism) believes the same thing with total depravity, free will and predestination ?

Arminius writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7
Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


I. We call this decree "Predestination," in Greek, Proorismon from the verb Proorizein which signifies determine, appoint, or decree any thing before you enter on its execution. According to this general notion, predestination, when attributed to God, will be his decree for the governance of all things, to which divines usually give the appellation of PROVIDENCE. (Acts ii. 28; xvii, 26.) It is customary to consider in a less general notion, so far as it has reference to rational creatures who are to be saved or damned, for instance, angels and men. It is taken in a stricter sense about the predestination of men, and then it is usually employed in two ways; for it is sometimes accommodated to both the elect and the reprobate. At other times, it is restricted to the elect alone, and then it has reprobation as its opposite. According to this last signification, in which it is almost constantly used in Scripture, (Rom. viii. 29,) we will treat on predestination.

II. Predestination, therefore, as it regards the thing itself, is the decree of the good pleasure of God in Christ, by which he resolved within himself from all eternity, to justify, adopt and endow with everlasting life, to the praise of his own glorious grace, believers on whom he had decreed to bestow faith. (Ephes. 1; Rom. 9.)

III. The genus of predestination we lay down as a decree which is called in Scripture Proqesiv "the purpose of God," (Rom. ix. 11,) and Boulhn tou qelhmatov Qeou "the counsel of God’s own will." (Ephes. i. 11.) And this decree is not legal, according to what is said, "The man who doeth those things shall live by them;" (Rom. x. 5;) but it is evangelical, and this is the language which it holds: "This is the will of God, that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life." (John vi. 40; Rom. x. 9.) This decree, therefore, is peremptory and irrevocable; because the final manifestation of "the whole counsel of God" concerning our salvation, is contained in the gospel. (Acts xx. 27; Heb. i. 2; ii, 2, 3.)

IV. The Cause of this decree is God, "according to the good pleasure" or the benevolent affection "of his own will." (Ephes. i. 5.) And God indeed is the cause, as possessing the right of determining as he wills both about men as his creatures, and especially as sinners, and about his blessings, (Jer. xviii. 6; Matt. xx. 14, 15,) "according to the good pleasure of his own will," by which, being moved with and in himself, he made that decree. This "good pleasure" not only excludes every cause which it could take from man, or which it could be imagined to take from him; but it likewise removes whatever was in or from man, that could justly move God not to make that gracious decree. (Rom. xi. 34, 35.)

V. As the foundation of this decree, we place Jesus Christ, the mediator between God and men, (Ephes. i. 4.) "in whom the Father is well pleased;" (Matt. iii. 17; Luke iii. 22;) "in whom God reconciled the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them" and "whom God made to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor. v. 19, 21.) Through Him "everlasting righteousness was to be brought in," (Dan. ix. 24,) adoption to be acquired, the spirit of grace and of faith was to be obtained, (Gal. iv. 5, 19, 6,) eternal life procured, (John vi. 51,) and all the plenitude of spiritual blessings prepared, the communication of which must be decreed by predestination. He is also constituted by God the Head of all those persons who will, by divine predestination, accept of the equal enjoyment of these blessings. (Ephes. i. 22; v, 23; Heb. v. 9.)

According to Christianity Today's "Christian History" it is said concerning Arminius, "It was his study of the Epistle to the Romans as an Amsterdam minister that set Jacob Arminius firmly against Calvinism. Faith, he believed, was the cause of election: "It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons." "That teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace," he assured them, "provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will of that which is evil."

Per Theopedia "The theology of Arminianism was not fully developed during Arminius' time, but was systematized after his death and formalized in the Five Articles of Remonstrance in 1610." https://www.theopedia.com/jacobus-arminius

Arminius seems to have changed his views over his lifetime. I would not be surprised to find his later works to disagree with his earlier publications in some ways. But certainly, by the time of the Five Articles of Remonstrance (after he had already died (1609)), Arminianism had migrated from agreeing with Calvinism to opposing Calvinism, in particular, concerning the matter of free will.
 
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