Why do people blame calvinists ?

[Butch5]

I agree with you although I think you need to rework your opinion about John 6:44. People can`t make or maintain a choice for Jesus without God`s help.

My position on John 6:44 is that it applied to those people in Jesus' day. It's not a statement to all mankind. No one can come to Jesus unless He is on earth.

 

[RickReads]

My position on John 6:44 is that it applied to those people in Jesus' day. It's not a statement to all mankind. No one can come to Jesus unless He is on earth.

Jesus is still here though.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I don`t disagree. I think it`s a mistake to be overly attached to the term trinity tho. That word wasn`t invented until the third century.

We can refer to God as Multi-Personal instead or that God is Plural in Persons or that the One God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit if one doesn't like the word Trinity or Triune.

 

[RickReads]

We can refer to God as Multi-Personal instead or that God is Plural in Persons or that the One God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit if one doesn't like the word Trinity or Triune.

I don`t have dislike for the term trinity per se, I just have an aversion for using terms that were invented after the 1st century. I use them for discussion purposes only. Since I was 20 my passion has been to recover the beliefs of the 1st century disciples.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus is still here though.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That's the Holy Spirit. Scriptures says He's seated at the right hand of God. But, even apart from that people can't walk up to Jesus. He's not on earth. It's this kind of thing that leads people to these ism's. People talk about coming to Christ and what they mean is they became a believer. That's not what Jesus meant when He said no one could come to Him. People start reading the Bible like this and that's how we come to the ism's.

 

[RickReads]

That's the Holy Spirit. Scriptures says He's seated at the right hand of God. But, even apart from that people can't walk up to Jesus. He's not on earth. It's this kind of thing that leads people to these ism's. People talk about coming to Christ and what they mean is they became a believer. That's not what Jesus meant when He said no one could come to Him. People start reading the Bible like this and that's how we come to the ism's.

Open minded huh?

MATTHEW 18
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

This is the Holy Spirit sent from the Father in the name of Jesus. If you have the Holy Spirit then Jesus is in you.

Jesus spells out all this and more in the gospel of John. I think you got some work to do.

 

[All Glory To God]

How do His statements fit into that context? You didn't explain that. Which of those passages says man has no free will? Neither passage states that so it's obvious your argument is by way of implication. Since it's by way of implication you need to explain it.

I need to point something out very important here if you will grant me the opportunity.

Presumably you are not reformed or a calvinist as you are in opposition to the doctrines, so I will take some liberty and assume you belive in libertarian free will of humanity which can be used by any person to choose God, because God loves all people and has put the option on the table for the sinner to choose Jesus. That being the case, here's my point-if you want to look at the scripture in context, we have to apply that principle accros the whole Bible, like John 3:16. If you want to interpret all the scripture verbatim, then that needs to be applied across the whole bible as well, like the verses you are denying.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[Butch5]

Open minded huh?

MATTHEW 18
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

This is the Holy Spirit sent from the Father in the name of Jesus. If you have the Holy Spirit then Jesus is in you.

Jesus spells out all this and more in the gospel of John. I think you got some work to do.

Really? Can you reconcile these passages?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Matt. 22:44 KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64 KJV)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:19 KJV)

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55-56 KJV)

Please, reconcile these passages with the ones you posted. You see, you're proving my point. People just take passages they want and ignore the rest. If you're open minded you'll seek to reconcile them, if not you won't.

If you can't reconcile them all, you have something wrong.

 

[RickReads]

Really? Can you reconcile these passages?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Matt. 22:44 KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64 KJV)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:19 KJV)

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55-56 KJV)

Please, reconcile these passages with the ones you posted. You see, you're proving my point. People just take passages they want and ignore the rest. If you're open minded you'll seek to reconcile them, if not you won't.

If you can't reconcile them all, you have something wrong.

I reconciled all those passages years ago. You just proved you aren`t open minded because you assume that I can`t.

How old are you? I`ve been a full on literalist for 35 years. I spent about 20 working on reconciling the Godhead. How about you?

I would enjoy sharing these things with you but if you are just going to puff up at people I don`t need the exercise.

 

[chad kincham]

Free will makes you the savior.

Imagine a man dangling from a cliff, who's going to fall to his death.

Just before he loses his grip, a man comes along and sees his plight, and reaches out a hand to save him.

The one in danger has to accept the offer of help.

He could turn it down. Maybe the rescuer is black, and the one ready to fall is racist and refuses the offered hand, or maybe he was committing suicide and wants to die - so he could refuse the saving hand.

To claim that the man about to fall to his death decides to accept the offer from the saving hand, grasps that hand, and is saved from death, means that the man in peril saved himself, is ludicrous.

He obviously couldn’t save himself - nor would anyone in that situation claim that he saved himself - nor would any observer of the rescue claim that the act of accepting the saving hand meant that he was his own savior.

That typical Calvinist claim, is pretty ludicrous..

 

[All Glory To God]

Imagine a man dangling from a cliff, who's going to fall to his death.

Just before he loses his grip, a man comes along and sees his plight, and reaches out a hand to save him.

The one in danger has to accept the offer of help.

He could turn it down. Maybe the rescuer is black, and the one ready to fall is racist and refuses the offered hand, or maybe he was committing suicide and wants to die - so he could refuse the saving hand.

To claim that the man about to fall to his death decides to accept the offer from the saving hand, grasps that hand, and is saved from death, means that the man in peril saved himself, is ludicrous.

He obviously couldn’t save himself - nor would anyone in that situation claim that he saved himself - nor would any observer of the rescue claim that the act of accepting the saving hand meant that he was his own savior.

That typical Calvinist claim, is pretty ludicrous..

Taking the philosophical approach to salvation and not basing it on scripture is going to produce non-Christian examples.

That is the problem with using these types of carnal stories in an attempt to illustrate how the holy God relates to his creation.

 

[chad kincham]

Really? Can you reconcile these passages?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Matt. 22:44 KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64 KJV)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:19 KJV)

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55-56 KJV)

Please, reconcile these passages with the ones you posted. You see, you're proving my point. People just take passages they want and ignore the rest. If you're open minded you'll seek to reconcile them, if not you won't.

If you can't reconcile them all, you have something wrong.

Jesus is God the word, and though Christ rose in an immortal body, His divine spirit is omnipresent at the same time.

That means Jesus has both a physical presence limited to one location at a time, such as sitting at the right hand of the Father, and an omnipresent spiritual presence everywhere, at all times.

Jesus said He stands at the door of our hearts, knocking at the door, desiring to come in and be with us. Revelation 3:20

Ephesians 3:17 says He dwells in our hearts by faith.

Paul also wrote that it’s a mystery of God that Jesus is IN us, in Colossians 1:27.

Any questions?

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

A

 

[RickReads]

Taking the philosophical approach to salvation and not basing it on scripture is going to produce non-Christian examples.

That is the problem with using these types of carnal stories in an attempt to illustrate how the holy God relates to his creation.

The guy he is responding to didn`t post any scripture either, not even after I made more then one request that he do so. It felt like doing a philosophy class to me as well. I couldn`t get anything substantial on the table.

 

[Butch5]

I need to point something out very important here if you will grant me the opportunity.

Presumably you are not reformed or a calvinist as you are in opposition to the doctrines, so I will take some liberty and assume you belive in libertarian free will of humanity which can be used by any person to choose God, because God loves all people and has put the option on the table for the sinner to choose Jesus. That being the case, here's my point-if you want to look at the scripture in context, we have to apply that principle accros the whole Bible, like John 3:16. If you want to interpret all the scripture verbatim, then that needs to be applied across the whole bible as well, like the verses you are denying.

Can't have it both ways.

What verses are they that you think I'm denying? As I said, "ALL" of the passages have to fit what one believes. By saying all, I'm not denying any.

 

[RickReads]

Jesus is God the word, and though Christ rose in an immortal body, His divine spirit is omnipresent at the same time.

That means Jesus has both a physical presence limited to one location at a time, such as sitting at the right hand of the Father, and an omnipresent spiritual presence everywhere, at all times.

Jesus said He stands at the door of our hearts, knocking at the door, desiring to come in and be with us. Revelation 3:20

Ephesians 3:17 says He dwells in our hearts by faith.

Paul also wrote that it’s a mystery of God that Jesus is IN us, in Colossians 1:27.

Any questions?

Shalom.

The vision of Steven is significant. When Steven saw Jesus He was standing up. This idea that Jesus has spent the last 2000 years sitting in a chair is something I have never understood.

 

[Butch5]

I reconciled all those passages years ago. You just proved you aren`t open minded because you assume that I can`t.

How old are you? I`ve been a full on literalist for 35 years. I spent about 20 working on reconciling the Godhead. How about you?

I would enjoy sharing these things with you but if you are just going to puff up at people I don`t need the exercise.

Firstly, I said "if" you can't. I didn't assume anything. If I had assumed you couldn't, I wouldn't have asked you to. I appreciate your reply, but you didn't explain how they are reconciled? When you are gathered together with two or three in prayer, can you touch Jesus? Can you hand Him your Bible?

 

[Butch5]

Jesus is God the word, and though Christ rose in an immortal body, His divine spirit is omnipresent at the same time.

That means Jesus has both a physical presence limited to one location at a time, such as sitting at the right hand of the Father, and an omnipresent spiritual presence everywhere, at all times.

Jesus said He stands at the door of our hearts, knocking at the door, desiring to come in and be with us. Revelation 3:20

Ephesians 3:17 says He dwells in our hearts by faith.

Paul also wrote that it’s a mystery of God that Jesus is IN us, in Colossians 1:27.

Any questions?

Shalom.

Can you support any of that with Scripture?

 

[RickReads]

Can you support any of that with Scripture?

He did. You didn`t read?

 

[RickReads]

Firstly, I said "if" you can't. I didn't assume anything. If I had assumed you couldn't, I wouldn't have asked you to. I appreciate your reply, but you didn't explain how they are reconciled? When you are gathered together with two or three in prayer, can you touch Jesus? Can you hand Him your Bible?

You didn`t answer my questions, why am I obligated to answer yours?