Why do Arminians...

[EmSw]

And once again, they failed. They didn't obey because of their sinfulness. Therefore, God had to give them a new heart.

And because they failed, God told them to repent and turn from their transgressions and cast them away.

It seems you are saying God rewards sinfulness by giving them a new heart. If one would only read all through the Bible, God never rewards sin and evil doers. In fact, God punishes iniquity and grants favor to those who remove sin and obey His word.

Perhaps you can cite passages where God favors sin and rewards it with good. You can start with Adam if you like. Here are a few passages to ponder:

Deuteronomy 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

Corresponding to 'cast away all your transgressions', God tells them to purge evil from among you. God definitely did not give them a new heart, but rather, had them stoned.


Judges 2
11 Then the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord and served the Baals,
12 and they forsook the Lord, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the Lord to anger.

Here we see Israel (God's elect) did evil, served Baal, and forsook the Lord. Did God give them a new heart because they sinned? NO! He was provoked to anger.


1 Kings 11
6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not follow the Lord fully, as David his father had done.
7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
8 Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
9 Now the Lord was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,

Solomon did evil and according to your theology, God would have given him a new heart. Far from receiving a new heart, God was angry with Solomon.

God doesn't respond to man's sins with giving man a new heart. Instead it angers God and punishment is given instead. I would dearly love to see why you think God responds to sin with rewards and where you find this in the God's Word.

 

[Hammster]

And because they failed, God told them to repent and turn from their transgressions and cast them away.

It seems you are saying God rewards sinfulness by giving them a new heart. If one would only read all through the Bible, God never rewards sin and evil doers. In fact, God punishes iniquity and grants favor to those who remove sin and obey His word.

Perhaps you can cite passages where God favors sin and rewards it with good. You can start with Adam if you like. Here are a few passages to ponder:

Deuteronomy 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor’s wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

Corresponding to 'cast away all your transgressions', God tells them to purge evil from among you. God definitely did not give them a new heart, but rather, had them stoned.


Judges 2
11 Then the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord and served the Baals,
12 and they forsook the Lord, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the Lord to anger.

Here we see Israel (God's elect) did evil, served Baal, and forsook the Lord. Did God give them a new heart because they sinned? NO! He was provoked to anger.


1 Kings 11
6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not follow the Lord fully, as David his father had done.
7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
8 Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
9 Now the Lord was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,

Solomon did evil and according to your theology, God would have given him a new heart. Far from receiving a new heart, God was angry with Solomon.

God doesn't respond to man's sins with giving man a new heart. Instead it angers God and punishment is given instead. I would dearly love to see why you think God responds to sin with rewards and where you find this in the God's Word.

I never said God rewarded sinfulness. I never even hinted at it.

 

[EmSw]

In your theology, it's a reward for doing something good, not as result of God doing something good.

What a statement Hammster. Isn't it true in your theology, God rewards those for doing evil, even the most vile sinner with regeneration? In my previous post I showed where God punishes evil, not reward it. This is akin to calling black, white and white, black.

Ruth 2:12
May the Lord reward your work, and your wages be full from the Lord, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge.

1 Samuel 24
18 You have declared today that you have done good to me, that the Lord delivered me into your hand and yet you did not kill me.
19 For if a man finds his enemy, will he let him go away safely? May the Lord therefore reward you with good in return for what you have done to me this day.

2 Samuel 22:21
The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness;

Proverbs 22:4
The reward of humility and the fear of the Lord are riches, honor and life.

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great

Here we see those who do good will have a great reward.


Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

I must ask, how were you rewarded regeneration without seeking Him?


Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Here we see His reward is given to EVERY man according to what he has done. I ask, how were you rewarded regeneration when you did nothing at all?

 

[EmSw]

I never said God rewarded sinfulness. I never even hinted at it.

With all the passages I gave, how can you say God looks upon sin and rewards it a new heart?

 

[sdowney717]

With all the passages I gave, how can you say God looks upon sin and rewards it a new heart?

God does not reward someone with a new heart.
You speak of it as something other than a gift, works perhaps?

Grace is unmerited favor. If God be for us who can be against us?
All have sin, all under condemnation of sin.
By God's mercy and grace, we are become new creatures in Christ.
Nope this is not for all people, only for His people, His very own elect.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Hammster]

With all the passages I gave, how can you say God looks upon sin and rewards it a new heart?

It's the only way anyone would ever believe. Do you understand that your sin is just as vile now as before you were saved? Do you really believe you can be good enough to get save?

 

[sdowney717]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, so there is no boasting we can do. He did this as a free gift to sinners. Christ came into the world to save sinners.
Sinners are the ones who get new hearts and become new creatures in Christ.
Nothing they did merited being saved, not a thing.

By grace you have been saved even when you were dead in trespasses and sins, God made you alive because of His great love for you. His love is all that mattered. His GREAT love is why persons get saved.


Romans 3
NKJV

All Have Sinned

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Not really. If God only saves those who do something first (believe), then that's earning or meriting salvation.

No, that is not the case. But I realize you are predestined to view the non-refusal of a freely offered gift as somehow earning that gift, just as I am predestined to view it otherwise. Calvinists and Arminians have some fundamentally different ways of perceiving language and reality, and it is nearly impossible to get past them to have genuine communication.

 

[sdowney717]

No, that is not the case. But I realize you are predestined to view the non-refusal of a freely offered gift as somehow earning that gift, just as I am predestined to view it otherwise. Calvinists and Arminians have some fundamentally different ways of perceiving language and reality, and it is nearly impossible to get past them to have genuine communication.

So then, in your view, does God love all sinners with the same love?

 

[Hammster]

No, that is not the case. But I realize you are predestined to view the non-refusal of a freely offered gift as somehow earning that gift, just as I am predestined to view it otherwise. Calvinists and Arminians have some fundamentally different ways of perceiving language and reality, and it is nearly impossible to get past them to have genuine communication.

The problem is that the gift is not refusable, any more than the wages of sin are refusable.

 

[EmSw]

It's the only way anyone would ever believe. Do you understand that your sin is just as vile now as before you were saved? Do you really believe you can be good enough to get save?

Ezekiel 18
27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness (or does good), he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Since Jesus is the Word Itself, it's those who don't believe the Word in Ezekiel that will not be saved.

I don't know if you have ever noticed, but verse 27 says man will save his life. He saves his life when he turns away from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness. According to God's truth in Ezekiel, man can be good enough to save his life. But first, he must turn away from wickedness.

Also notice, man must CONSIDER and then turn away from his wickedness. Consider is Strong's word is H7200. It has the following meanings -

1. to see
2. to see, perceive
3. to see, have vision
4. to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
5. to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish

So we see man must give attention, regard, and perceive his transgressions and then turn away from them in order to live (be regenerated).

Of course I know my sins are vile. That's why I must consider them and turn away from them, and not only turn away from them, but practice justice and righteousness. If I don't turn away from them, I will never have a new life.

 

[Hammster]

Ezekiel 18
27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness (or does good), he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Since Jesus is the Word Itself, it's those who don't believe the Word in Ezekiel that will not be saved.

I don't know if you have ever noticed, but verse 27 says man will save his life. He saves his life when he turns away from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness. According to God's truth in Ezekiel, man can be good enough to save his life. But first, he must turn away from wickedness.

Also notice, man must CONSIDER and then turn away from his wickedness. Consider is Strong's word is H7200. It has the following meanings -

1. to see
2. to see, perceive
3. to see, have vision
4. to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
5. to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish

So we see man must give attention, regard, and perceive his transgressions and then turn away from them in order to live (be regenerated).

Of course I know my sins are vile. That's why I must consider them and turn away from them, and not only turn away from them, but practice justice and righteousness. If I don't turn away from them, I will never have a new life.

Obviously, the Israelites did not do this. That's why we have chapter 36.

 

[sdowney717]

Ezekiel 18
27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness (or does good), he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Since Jesus is the Word Itself, it's those who don't believe the Word in Ezekiel that will not be saved.

I don't know if you have ever noticed, but verse 27 says man will save his life. He saves his life when he turns away from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness. According to God's truth in Ezekiel, man can be good enough to save his life. But first, he must turn away from wickedness.

Also notice, man must CONSIDER and then turn away from his wickedness. Consider is Strong's word is H7200. It has the following meanings -

1. to see
2. to see, perceive
3. to see, have vision
4. to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
5. to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish

So we see man must give attention, regard, and perceive his transgressions and then turn away from them in order to live (be regenerated).

Of course I know my sins are vile. That's why I must consider them and turn away from them, and not only turn away from them, but practice justice and righteousness. If I don't turn away from them, I will never have a new life.

OT is superseded by the NT.
God now commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
Not believing in Christ is disobedience to that command.
So even if they could live as you say, they would still be dead in their sin.

 

[EmSw]

OT is superseded by the NT.
God now commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
Not believing in Christ is disobedience to that command.
So even if they could live as you say, they would still be dead in their sin.

Jesus taught one must keep the commandments in order to inherit eternal life. If one believes and teaches otherwise, then he is following another Jesus.

Repentance is all through the Bible. Jesus is the Word Itself, including the OT and the NT. He cannot supersede Himself. What He says is eternal truth and cannot perish. Man may delineate between the two, and even do away with part of the Word, but His Word remains forever.

All men are dead in their sin. Therefore, God's truth tells us to repent and turn away from our sins.

I didn't say they 'could live' as you state; God Almighty said that. I would treat the Word with fear and trembling and 'believe' the truth within. Not believing the truth within is the same as not believing Jesus, who is the Word Itself.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus taught one must keep the commandments in order to inherit eternal life. If one believes and teaches otherwise, then he is following another Jesus.

Repentance is all through the Bible. Jesus is the Word Itself, including the OT and the NT. He cannot supersede Himself. What He says is eternal truth and cannot perish. Man may delineate between the two, and even do away with part of the Word, but His Word remains forever.

All men are dead in their sin. Therefore, God's truth tells us to repent and turn away from our sins.

I didn't say they 'could live' as you state; God Almighty said that. I would treat the Word with fear and trembling and 'believe' the truth within. Not believing the truth within is the same as not believing Jesus, who is the Word Itself.

So then you believe that someone who does not repent and believe the gospel of Christ can - will be saved if they turn away from 'wickedness' and do 'good'?

 

[EmSw]

Obviously, the Israelites did not do this. That's why we have chapter 36.

So, do you consider Ezekiel 18 a myth? Maybe you believe it isn't God's truth. Did God lie when He told us how to receive a new heart? Or perhaps, you don't believe it applies to you.

Anyway, God' truth will stand and prevail. Man has the choice to believe it and be saved, or it will be his judge.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

One can either receive His words or have His words judge him at the last day. What can man possibly say at the last day when His Word isn't believed?

 

[EmSw]

So then you believe that someone who does not repent and believe the gospel of Christ can - will be saved if they turn away from 'wickedness' and do 'good'?

Let's look at the passages again.

Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?"

Of course man has to repent, and turn from his transgressions.

As far as doing good, maybe you can show me in the Word, where anyone who does evil will enter heaven, or possess eternal life. Maybe you can show me where God says those who do evil have His favor or mercy. Or perhaps you can show me where God tells man to continue in evil and He is pleased.

 

[Hammster]

So, do you consider Ezekiel 18 a myth? Maybe you believe it isn't God's truth. Did God lie when He told us how to receive a new heart? Or perhaps, you don't believe it applies to you.

Anyway, God' truth will stand and prevail. Man has the choice to believe it and be saved, or it will be his judge.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

One can either receive His words or have His words judge him at the last day. What can man possibly say at the last day when His Word isn't believed?

Where in Ez 18 does it say to receive Christ's words?

 

[sdowney717]

Let's look at the passages again.

Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?"

Of course man has to repent, and turn from his transgressions.

As far as doing good, maybe you can show me in the Word, where anyone who does evil will enter heaven, or possess eternal life. Maybe you can show me where God says those who do evil have His favor or mercy. Or perhaps you can show me where God tells man to continue in evil and He is pleased.

Sorry but all are under sin both jew and greek alike.
Commit a single sin and your guilty, as if you have transgressed the whole law.
Christ is our righteousness imputed to us through faith and not by doing works of the law by which NO man will be justified in God's sight. Your pushing an antichrist philosophy of being good and doing good to be saved by your own righteous acts..

Jesus says if you do not believe in Him you will die in your sins.
That if you believe in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead, and confess with you mouth Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. That is what a saved person does, they do not do good works to earn salvation. I think I understand now your disbelief and objection towards the paschal lamb being Christ our passover lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

 

[NorrinRadd]

The problem is that the gift is not refusable, any more than the wages of sin are refusable.

No, the problem is that you EQUATE "wages" and "gift," again demonstrating that Calvinists and Arminians understand language and reality in fundamentally different ways.