Why do Arminians...

[Hammster]

No, the problem is that you EQUATE "wages" and "gift," again demonstrating that Calvinists and Arminians understand language and reality in fundamentally different ways.

There's nothing in the text to make one refusable and one not.

 

[stan1953]

The problem is that the gift is not refusable, any more than the wages of sin are refusable.

THAT would be making the word take on a context that would not make it a gift. The NT does not convey this meaning anywhere. GIFT is still GIFT in the NT, despite people trying to make it connote something it does not.
We are admonished to accept and receive this gift, which is totally inconsistent and contradictory to the slant RT puts on it.
Trying to make 'wages' and 'gift' connote the same thing forces your dogma on the text, which goes against any proper hermeneutical practise.
The Bible teaches us that the wages of a Godly life are much different than the wages of sin, but both are a result, or a reaping of what we sow. That is ONE of God's immutable laws. His gift of salvation is NOT a law, it is a gift, because of His grace and mercy, that He OFFERS. Hence the phrase; "whosoever will".

 

[Hammster]

THAT would be making the word take on a context that would not make it a gift. The NT does not convey this meaning anywhere. GIFT is still GIFT in the NT, despite people trying to make it connote something it does not.
We are admonished to accept and receive this gift, which is totally inconsistent and contradictory to the slant RT puts on it.
Trying to make 'wages' and 'gift' connote the same thing forces your dogma on the text, which goes against any proper hermeneutical practise.
The Bible teaches us that the wages of a Godly life are much different than the wages of sin, but both are a result, or a reaping of what we sow. That is ONE of God's immutable laws. His gift of salvation is NOT a law, it is a gift, because of His grace and mercy, that He OFFERS. Hence the phrase; "whosoever will".

There's a lot of claims in that post. But no scripture to back it up.

Let's start with this. Where are we admonished to accept the gift?

 

[Marvin Knox]

God chooses to save believers. No election. 1 Cor 1:21

My brother,

Perhaps, if you are willing to do so, we could continue this with very short pithy statements, questions, and responses. I will try to understand your position and refrain from jumping to conclusions concerning your beliefs. We are brothers after all and both seekers of truth.

If you choose to end our discussion at this time, that will be fine. I will make no reply. You can have the last word here if you wish.

Likely we will engage again on another subject in the future on another thread. There will be no hard feelings.

IF YOU ARE WILLING:

Assuming the clear teaching of scripture that God chose to write the individual names of those who would believe down in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world - by what name do you choose to call that particular doctrine? No matter that some persons such as Calvinists call it by another incorrect name as you see it. We can call it by whatever name you choose so long as we continue to discuss that so named doctrine as it relates to our subsequent actions in time and space.

That time and space and all of the actions by His creation therein - He fully intended - before it was even brought into existence - to create, sustain, and minutely orchestrate in the future according to His sovereign decisions. All of the subsequent actions by His creation would be, of course, worked after His good and perfect will as, I believe, you indicated we both agree.

MARVIN

 

[stan1953]

There's a lot of claims in that post. But no scripture to back it up.

Let's start with this. Where are we admonished to accept the gift?

It's rather disingenuous to require scripture when you're not willing to do the same in MOST of your posts. If I made a statement that you feel is not correct or true then refute it WITH scripture.

Matthew 7:11
If then you, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?
John 1:16 For from his fullness we have all received one gracious gift after another.
John 4:10 Jesus answered · her, saying, “If you had known the gift of God and who it was that said to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
Acts 11:17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to stand in God’s way?”

From now on I expect you will supply scripture for all your assertions.

Oh, BTW, where are we told we have no choice in accepting God's gift of salvation?

 

[Hammster]

It's rather disingenuous to require scripture when you're not willing to do the same in MOST of your posts. If I made a statement that you feel is not correct or true then refute it WITH scripture.

Matthew 7:11
If then you, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?
John 1:16 For from his fullness we have all received one gracious gift after another.
John 4:10 Jesus answered · her, saying, “If you had known the gift of God and who it was that said to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
Acts 11:17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to stand in God’s way?”

From now on I expect you will supply scripture for all your assertions.

Oh, BTW, where are we told we have no choice in accepting God's gift of salvation?

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Matthew 7:11 HCSB)

Nothing about salvation.

Indeed, we have all received grace after grace from His fullness, for the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:16, 17 HCSB)

Nothing about being admonished to revive the gift of salvation.

Jesus answered, “If you knew the gift of God, and who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would ask Him, and He would give you living water.” (John 4:10 HCSB)

No admonishment to accept the gift.

Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God? ” (Acts 11:17 HCSB)

And still no admonishment. You'll have to do better than just a simple word search.

 

[FaithInHisName]

Why do Arminians always argue against election?

Don't they, too, believe in election?

For example, here is one Arminian who makes arguments about the elect:



Arminians believe in election, too. The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is not whether or not people were elected before the foundation of the world, but rather, on what basis they were elected. That is the only difference.

Yet here is an Arminian poster who is making an argument against Calvinism in that the elect never experience hellfire, and thus were never really in danger of perishing, etc. He thinks he's arguing against Calvinism, but in fact he's arguing against Arminianism too, because Arminianism believes in election and believes that the elect are those who believe and persevere to the end!

Some do and some don't, the Arminian from a Calvinist view sees all that are not Calvinist who say they by faith believe in Christ are Arminian. Just as you will find differences in the Calvinist camp, likewise in the Arminain camp. I am according to Calvinsm an Arminian and I believe in election but I believe it according to scripture, yet that too is what a Calvinist would say, so it comes to one's interpretation, either God elects before faith or because of faith, Read John 6. I agree with Christ that faith is necessary and that it is a work not works. I understand the Calvinist view holds that what Jesus taught as a work they believe is not possible for salvation, but Jesus is very clear in John 6. That seems to sum it up, God requires a synergistic path to salvation, man must personally do the work of God by doing the work of faith.

 

[stan1953]

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Matthew 7:11 HCSB)

Nothing about salvation.

Indeed, we have all received grace after grace from His fullness, for the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:16, 17 HCSB)

Nothing about being admonished to revive the gift of salvation.

Jesus answered, “If you knew the gift of God, and who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would ask Him, and He would give you living water.” (John 4:10 HCSB)

No admonishment to accept the gift.

Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God? ” (Acts 11:17 HCSB)

And still no admonishment. You'll have to do better than just a simple word search.

All you show here is that you have different excuses for the same point raised. The issue was accepting a gift, regardless of what the gift is.

Apparently you believe the Bible is inconsistent is how it deals with gifts. We can and do accept all gifts except salvation, but you can't show it that POV FROM scripture, only deny it's reality.

Many Unitarians use the same arguments in that the Trinity does not exist in the actual words of scripture. If you only read scripture by words and not by the themes and totality of evidence it conveys, then you aren't reading scripture in a productive manner.

Now feel free to show us the GIFT of Salvation is forced on us, FROM scripture.

 

[Hammster]

All you show here is that you have different excuses for the same point raised. The issue was accepting a gift, regardless of what the gift is.

Apparently you believe the Bible is inconsistent is how it deals with gifts. We can and do accept all gifts except salvation, but you can't show it that POV FROM scripture, only deny it's reality.

Many Unitarians use the same arguments in that the Trinity does not exist in the actual words of scripture. If you only read scripture by words and not by the themes and totality of evidence it conveys, then you aren't reading scripture in a productive manner.

Now feel free to show us the GIFT of Salvation is forced on us, FROM scripture.

The question was specific. It was in response to a specific statement that you made. You generalized it to the point where you answered a different question. If you don't have a specific answer, please just say so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's the only way anyone would ever believe.

I'm still waiting for any verse that actually teaches that idea.

 

[Hammster]

I'm still waiting for any verse that actually teaches that idea.

I guess I'll have to repeat this once again. You won't find a verse any more than you'll find a verse that proves the Trinity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem is that the gift is not refusable, any more than the wages of sin are refusable.

Seems to equate the gift with wages of sin. So, wages come with sin, but what comes with the gift??

Also, please direct me to the passage that teaches that any gift is not refusable.

As always, thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My brother,

Perhaps, if you are willing to do so, we could continue this with very short pithy statements, questions, and responses. I will try to understand your position and refrain from jumping to conclusions concerning your beliefs. We are brothers after all and both seekers of truth.

If you choose to end our discussion at this time, that will be fine. I will make no reply. You can have the last word here if you wish.

I have no desire to "have the last word". I believe it is proper to respond to posts. If others wish to cease discussion, I have no hard feelings about it. But I will respond when posted to. I think it's a bit rude to ignore someone's post, esp when there is a question to answer.

Likely we will engage again on another subject in the future on another thread. There will be no hard feelings.

IF YOU ARE WILLING:

Assuming the clear teaching of scripture that God chose to write the individual names of those who would believe down in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world - by what name do you choose to call that particular doctrine? No matter that some persons such as Calvinists call it by another incorrect name as you see it. We can call it by whatever name you choose so long as we continue to discuss that so named doctrine as it relates to our subsequent actions in time and space.

That time and space and all of the actions by His creation therein - He fully intended - before it was even brought into existence - to create, sustain, and minutely orchestrate in the future according to His sovereign decisions. All of the subsequent actions by His creation would be, of course, worked after His good and perfect will as, I believe, you indicated we both agree.

MARVIN

Those who will believe are called believers, generally. Several times Scripture calls them Christians. The reason I didn't add "elect" is that there are some who's names weren't written down in the Book of Life who were elected. For example, Judas Iscariot, for one. And all the OT Jews who didn't believe in the Messiah, for another.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I guess I'll have to repeat this once again. You won't find a verse any more than you'll find a verse that proves the Trinity.

A poor comparison, since the Bible refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God. And the plural of God in Genesis.

Yet, there isn't any verse or passage that teaches that any gift is refusable.

I find it interesting how many things are believed by Calvinists that can't be found in Scripture. I would be quite uncomfortable if that were true about my theology.

 

[stan1953]

The question was specific. It was in response to a specific statement that you made. You generalized it to the point where you answered a different question. If you don't have a specific answer, please just say so.

If you're not going to accept what God's word conveys then just say so and I won't waste my time.

John 3:16 has always been the benchmark. Paul confirms this is Titus 2:11-12;
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

You can't say NO to the world until you say yes to Jesus, which means you accept Him as your savior. This is also confirmed in Rom 10:9-11

 

[Hammster]

Seems to equate the gift with wages of sin. So, wages come with sin, but what comes with the gift??

Also, please direct me to the passage that teaches that any gift is not refusable.

As always, thanks.

You are ignoring the parallel.

 

[Hammster]

A poor comparison, since the Bible refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God. And the plural of God in Genesis.

Where's the verse that says any of that? I need a verse from you.

 

[Hammster]

If you're not going to accept what God's word conveys then just say so and I won't waste my time.

John 3:16 has always been the benchmark. Paul confirms this is Titus 2:11-12;
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

You can't say NO to the world until you say yes to Jesus, which means you accept Him as your savior. This is also confirmed in Rom 10:9-11

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15 NASB)

You need to use a real translation and ditch the NIV. The grace that brings salvation actually accomplishes something.

 

[stan1953]

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15 NASB)
You need to use a real translation and ditch the NIV. The grace that brings salvation actually accomplishes something.

Well I have no problem with the NASB, and as you seem to prefer it then it seems this very verse would refute Election and support that salvation is for ALL MEN.
The point I made was that we have to say yes before we can live in obedience, no matter what English version you prefer.
Maybe you can equivocate on this verse as well?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[stan1953]

Where's the verse that says any of that? I need a verse from you.

Why, you don't accept it no matter how clear it is?