Why do Arminians...

[EmSw]

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15 NASB)

You need to use a real translation and ditch the NIV. The grace that brings salvation actually accomplishes something.

This grace of which you speak, is given to the humble, AND it brings salvation to ALL men, not just some.

It also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldy desires (cast away our transgressions), and live sensibly, righteously, and godly (practice justice, righteousness, and good works).

Will you disregard me for speaking this?

 

[Hammster]

Well I have no problem with the NASB, and as you seem to prefer it then it seems this very verse would refute Election and support that salvation is for ALL MEN.
The point I made was that we have to say yes before we can live in obedience, no matter what English version you prefer.
Maybe you can equivocate on this verse as well?
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

If it's all men, then all men are saved. Like I said, it actually accomplishes something. I think it's better to look at the context of the preceding verses and understand that it's all types of men.

 

[Hammster]

Why, you don't accept it no matter how clear it is?

You have a verse? Let's hear it.

 

[Hammster]

This grace of which you speak, is given to the humble, AND it brings salvation to ALL men, not just some.

It also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldy desires (cast away our transgressions), and live sensibly, righteously, and godly (practice justice, righteousness, and good works).

Will you disregard me for speaking this?

You added the part about being given to the humble. So I will disregard your statement.

 

[stan1953]

If it's all men, then all men are saved. Like I said, it actually accomplishes something. I think it's better to look at the context of the preceding verses and understand that it's all types of men.

ONLY is they ask and believe.
It would be great if you actually read IN context.

 

[stan1953]

You have a verse? Let's hear it.

Like I said, why bother. You'll just wiggle out of it.

 

[Hammster]

Like I said, why bother. You'll just wiggle out of it.

Because I know there's no verse. And you know there's no verse. And FG knows there's no verse. So asking for a verse to prove something is just a charade.

 

[Hammster]

ONLY is they ask and believe.
It would be great if you actually read IN context.

Which verse says that? I just read Titus 2 and I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

 

[EmSw]

You added the part about being given to the humble. So I will disregard your statement.

Really Hammster?

1. James 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
2. 1 Peter 5:5 - Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I have no desire to "have the last word". I believe it is proper to respond to posts. If others wish to cease discussion, I have no hard feelings about it. But I will respond when posted to. I think it's a bit rude to ignore someone's post, esp when there is a question to answer.


Those who will believe are called believers, generally. Several times Scripture calls them Christians. The reason I didn't add "elect" is that there are some who's names weren't written down in the Book of Life who were elected. For example, Judas Iscariot, for one. And all the OT Jews who didn't believe in the Messiah, for another.

So you object to the term "elect" being used for believers because there are some people who are elect for other reasons other than to believe on Christ. Fair enough. I get it. We won't call the doctrine that speaks of the predestination of some to believe as the doctrine of election as has been Christian tradition.

But we do agree that those who believe were predestined to do so before the foundation of the world - right?

 

[stan1953]

Because I know there's no verse. And you know there's no verse. And FG knows there's no verse. So asking for a verse to prove something is just a charade.

So you admit your requests are just charades?
Nice....

 

[stan1953]

Let's start with this. Where are we admonished to accept the gift?

Matthew 10:40
“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
Mark 4:20
And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”
Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
Luke 18:17
Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
John 1:16
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 13:20
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
John 17:8
for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Now if none of these verses show you that Jesus Himself admonishes and teaches us to receive the gift of God, then sadly you do NOT understand scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Really Hammster?

1. James 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
2. 1 Peter 5:5 - Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

So Titus had copies of 1 Peter and James lying around? How do you know this?

 

[Hammster]

So you admit your requests are just charades?
Nice....

No. My request was to prove the point that to to ask for a single verse to prove a doctrine is a charade.

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 10:40
“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
Mark 4:20

No admonition. He's saying that whoever does receive Him receives the Father also.

And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”
Luke 11:10

No admonition. Notice that the soil was already good when the seed was sown.

For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
Luke 18:17

Where's the reference to receiving the gift of salvation?

Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
John 1:16

I dealt with this one previously.

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
John 12:48

Amen. But no admonition.

He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 13:20

that's man natural state.

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
John 17:8

Same as Mark 4:20.

for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

Still no admonition.

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

No admonition to revive the gift of eternal life.

It appears that all we have here are the results of a word search. Nothing that says the gift of eternal life can be rejected.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are ignoring the parallel.

I explained why it was such a poor parallel.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where's the verse that says any of that?

Wow. Really? Not aware of any verses that call the Father, Son, and the Spirit as God?? There's not "one" verse, as you well know. But there are many verses that speak of each member of the Trinity as God.

And most Christians are aware that in Genesis 1 Elohim is plural, which is why the Scripture says "Let US…".

I need a verse from you.

That's funny. Really. You've admitted that you can't provide any verses for some of the things of your view, and yet request one from me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15 NASB)

You need to use a real translation and ditch the NIV. The grace that brings salvation actually accomplishes something.

And, actually it does, when the gift (Rom 6:23) is received (Jn 1:12, 1 Tim 1:16).

 

[FreeGrace2]

If it's all men, then all men are saved. Like I said, it actually accomplishes something. I think it's better to look at the context of the preceding verses and understand that it's all types of men.

For some inexplicable reason, Calvinist seem unaware that gifts are possessed only when accepted or received. Jn 1:12, 1 Tim 1:16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because I know there's no verse. And you know there's no verse. And FG knows there's no verse. So asking for a verse to prove something is just a charade.

Speaking of FG, he provides verses that actually support his views, unlike that of those in reformed circles.