Why do Arminians...

[Marvin Knox]

I posted this yesterday, which has so far been ignored:
Simply choosing and electing are not the same. Yes, there is overlap, but they are distinct.

Every election involves a choice. But very few choices involve election. That is the clear difference.
Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, why? Thanks.

I certainly agree with that statement. I must say though that I'm not picking up what you're laying down. Maybe it's a little early for my brain to wrap around it. But could you explain how that ties together with my comments.

Thanks!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I certainly agree with that statement. I must say though that I'm not picking up what you're laying down. Maybe it's a little early for my brain to wrap around it. But could you explain how that ties together with my comments.

Thanks!

Glad to! Seems most people think that election is about being chosen for salvation, on all the theological sides. But it isn't an election.

Yes, God does choose who He will save, and 1 Cor 1:21 very clearly tells us who He chooses to save: believers. But this isn't an election; it's a choice, and that choice is based on belief.

The ISBE contains a good definition of election; being selected for special privilege and service. Unfortunately, the ISBE includes the phrase " denote an act of Divine selection taking effect upon human objects so as to bring them into special (and saving) relations with God ". If it had not included the parenthesis, it would have bee correct.

Of the 3 forms of "election" in Scripture (noun, verb, and adjective), none of the 51 verses with these words links election to salvation.

I made my comments because it seems Calvinists, particularly, equate choice with election, and they are not the same.

So, while God does choose who will be saved, He does not elect anyone to salvation.

Election isn't about salvation; it's about special privilege and service. Which supports the fact that even Judas was one of the elect 12. Jn 6:70. He wasn't saved, but he was chosen (elected) for special privilege (certainly to be with Jesus for 3 years) and service (being the betrayer as prophesied).

 

[Marvin Knox]

"You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” (Romans 9:19)

Call it choice. Call it election. call it God exerting His will on individuals both saved and unsaved alike. Call it whatever you like. It matters not.

The statement of incredulity that will be issued whenever the doctrine is taught correctly as per the Holy Spirit's meaning through Paul's words - has to do with His creation being unable to resist God's sovereign will.

This inability is what is clearly taught by the passage concerning the twins. This is what the exampled questioner is objecting to.

It seems to me that your so finely parsing the difference between the words translated as chosen and elect is a clear attempt to justify a position which the Holy Spirit has not allowed one to logically hold from the words and context He has chosen (or is that elected) to provide for us in scripture.

Don't be offended. I mean this is the kindest sense. But you are adding insult to injury in so far as believing God's clear statement in the doctrine of sovereign election (or sovereign choice if you would like to word it that way).

Why not rather bring your doctrine into line with the clear meaning of scripture? You don't have to call yourself a "Calvinist" if that is objectionable to you. I don't like to call myself a Calvinist either.

It is quite possible to combine the concepts of divine sovereignty and free will. It is called by many the doctrine of "concurrence" and is related directly to the doctrine of providence in general.

Jesus was perfectly willing to subscribe to the doctrine of concurrence. He said that He could only do what the Father was doing and that He liked it that way.

Me too! I live and move and have my being in Him and I wouldn't have it any other way. I exercise my faith because He works in me to do so for His glory.

It's not really all that difficult - this sovereignty - will of God - free will thing. He's God. We are the creatures. Live with it. Embrace it - concerning your salvation and your ability to breath for that matter. I do.

Loving the sovereign grace of my creator in all that I am and all that I do ----- MARVIN

 

[FreeGrace2]

"You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” (Romans 9:19)

Call it choice. Call it election. call it God exerting His will on individuals both saved and unsaved alike. Call it whatever you like. It matters not.

As I explained, it matters a great deal. God does NOT elect anyone to salvation. He does choose who He will save, for sure. But that is NOT an election. Election is about service. And does involve unbelievers.

The statement of incredulity that will be issued whenever the doctrine is taught correctly as per the Holy Spirit's meaning through Paul's words - has to do with His creation being unable to resist God's sovereign will.

I don't believe that is at issue at all. I've never argued against His will.

This inability is what is clearly taught by the passage concerning the twins. This is what the exampled questioner is objecting to.

Inability to do what, exactly? The choice of the younger twin certainly was not about ability, or lack thereof.

It seems to me that your so finely parsing the difference between the words translated as chosen and elect is a clear attempt to justify a position which the Holy Spirit has not allowed one to logically hold from the words and context He has chosen (or is that elected) to provide for us in scripture.

On the contrary, Greek words all have meaning. And as you have previously agreed, all elections involve choice, but very few choices involve election.

When the doctrine is mentioned, people seem to default to God's choice of salvation, which it isn't, which was my point.

Don't be offended. I mean this is the kindest sense. But you are adding insult to injury in so far as believing God's clear statement in the doctrine of sovereign election (or sovereign choice if you would like to word it that way).

I'm never offended by any poster. Many times amused, but never offended. This isn't personal, but rather, doctrinal. And I fully agree that what God chooses, as well as what He elects, is by His sovereignty.

Why not rather bring your doctrine into line with the clear meaning of scripture? You don't have to call yourself a "Calvinist" if that is objectionable to you. I don't like to call myself a Calvinist either.

I have done that. My understanding of election is about service and privilege, not about being chosen or elected for salvation.

It is quite possible to combine the concepts of divine sovereignty and free will. It is called by many the doctrine of "concurrence" and is related directly to the doctrine of providence in general.

I have no problem with God's sovereignty and free will. None whatsoever, and there isn't any conflict between them.

Jesus was perfectly willing to subscribe to the doctrine of concurrence. He said that He could only do what the Father was doing and that He liked it that way.

I agree.

Me too! I live and move and have my being in Him and I wouldn't have it any other way. I exercise my faith because He works in me to do so for His glory.

Agreed.

It's not really all that difficult - this sovereignty - will of God - free will thing. He's God. We are the creatures. Live with it. Embrace it - concerning your salvation and your ability to breath for that matter. I do.

I have embraced it, and see no conflict between them. I do wonder why it seems you think I do have a problem with reconciling them. There is nothing to "reconcile". They are fully compatible.

Loving the sovereign grace of my creator in all that I am and all that I do ----- MARVIN

You have noted that you don't call yourself a "Calvinist", but the phrase "sovereign grace" is code for Calvinistic doctrine that God elects people to save apart from ANYTHING about them.

Which is Biblically false, given 1 Cor 1:21. God is pleased to save (i.e., He chooses to save) those who believe.

Salvation is based on faith. God's plan is to save believers. Not choose people to save and then regenerate them so they will believe. Such thinking results in the conclusion that God chooses who will believe, which is clearly NOT taught in Scripture.

 

[stan1953]

Once God gave me a new heart, I could do nothing other than believe.

Now you see I can't relate to this, because I always believed as far back as I can remember. It wasn't until I confessed Christ as my savior that it all came together.

 

[Hammster]

Now you see I can't relate to this, because I always believed as far back as I can remember. It wasn't until I confessed Christ as my savior that it all came together.

 

[Marvin Knox]

FreeGrace2

Like I said before - "Call it choice. Call it election. call it God exerting His will on individuals both saved and unsaved alike. Call it whatever you like. It matters not."

Perhaps I'm not sharp enough to follow your parsing of the two words, election and choice, and I really don't care to.

The heart of the matter has to do with whether or not God looks down through time and, based on what He sees us doing with Christ some time after the foundation of the world - determines what He will decide before the foundation of the world will happen when He creates and supports a world to stretch into a future. Seems a silly concept precisely because it is a silly concept. It would be laughable if so many people like yourself didn't believe it.

The scripture says that the names of the saved were written "before the foundation of the world". (Revelation 17:8 and Ephesians 1:4)

God is immutable. He doesn't learn anything. He already knows everything past, present, future, possible and impossible. He always has.

As the saying goes, "Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has ever occurred to God?"

Since He has always had within His magnificent mind every possibility that can be - only He can decide which of those possible things will occur in time and space. Since you believe that God is sovereign in all things and that He works ALL things after the council of His will - you must believe that His will is done concerning my existence and what I will do within that existence.

Things don't happen and then He says that they will happen because He sees them happening in the future. He says -then they happen. He is the first cause of all things. Yes - they do happen according to 2nd causes but He is the "first born" of all creation. His word goes forth and then a thing happens.

"Let there be light" and there is light. "I will harden Pharaoh's heart" and Pharaoh hardens his heart. "I will crucify my Son" and men crucify His Son. "There will be a guy named Marvin in 2014" and my parents produced a son in 1945. "Marvin will have X number of hairs on his head in 2014" and here I stand. "Marvin will become my child" and Marvin accepted Christ in 1958.

His Word is sent forth to accomplish whatever He desires and whatever He desires to happen from His unlimited options within His own mind happens. His Word accomplishes exactly what He sends Him forth to do.

God is omni present as well. He is present everywhere at the same time and that not with division but in His entirety. That includes the tip of every bullet fired either unjustifiably or justifiably - in murder or protection. That includes in every cancer cell and in every tear drop. That includes of course every hair of my head (whether on my head or in the sink) and also in every portion of my brain - that organ which allows me to make thinking decisions.

The idea that I could have a thought or make a decision therewith without God's intimate involvement is as ridiculous as the idea that an A-bomb could blow up in Hiroshima without His intimate involvement and His express permission and without it being His will that it do so.

All of this is Christianity 101, for anyone who has been a believer for a period of time I would think. Hopefully you are in agreement with all the above.

Let me know if we are in disagreement and we needn't go farther until we work that out..

The ultimate point of our discussion is not whether I have a will. Of course I do. The point is whether the exercise of my will will fall out so as to accomplish exactly what He has desired before the foundation of the world for it to accomplish. (But then let's stick to the main body of this post before we tackle the point mentioned in this last paragraph.)

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2

Like I said before - "Call it choice. Call it election. call it God exerting His will on individuals both saved and unsaved alike. Call it whatever you like. It matters not."

Perhaps I'm not sharp enough to follow your parsing of the two words, election and choice, and I really don't care to.

This is quite puzzling since you agreed with my statement:
"All elections involve a choice, but very few choices involve an election."

Yet, you continue to say "it matters not" and that I'm parsing words. If you really did understand and agree with my statement, you SHOULD understand WHY they are different and not equal.

But since your comments are internally contradicted, I'm not sure there can be a serious discussion of the issue of election.

 

[Marvin Knox]

This is quite puzzling since you agreed with my statement:
"All elections involve a choice, but very few choices involve an election."

Yet, you continue to say "it matters not" and that I'm parsing words. If you really did understand and agree with my statement, you SHOULD understand WHY they are different and not equal.

But since your comments are internally contradicted, I'm not sure there can be a serious discussion of the issue of election.

I do understand your statement and said so and I agree with your statement and said that it is a true statement.

I say that it "matters not" concerning the nuanced difference in the two words when you try to tie that statement to your stance on who is the first cause of our choices concerning Christ and salvation.

That is because whether or not the two words mean exactly the same thing or not - doesn't change your lack of logic concerning the silly idea that God decrees something based on what He sees happening in His universe in the future.

The problem is that you (apparently) don't believe that we live and move and have our being in the Word of God. The problem is that you (apparently) don't believe that all things exist through Him, for Him, and in Him have their being. That clearly means that nothing can happen without His decreeing that it happen and in that decreeing carry it through to it's conclusion of happening.

I take it from your wave goodby that you sense that you are reaching a point where your folly will be evident to all and wish to bail out. So be it. Just don't expect anyone to believe that it is for any other reason.

 

[EmSw]

Obviously they didn't. That's the point. That's what got us to chapter 36.

Then perhaps you could enlighten me concerning the very words of God in Ezekiel 18.

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

It's not hard to notice that God will judge Israel according to their conduct. To which, God gave them this command - "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions".

Why? "...so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you."

Concerning their transgressions mentioned in verse 30, God then tells Israel to "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed."

Again, why? (read carefully) ...to make themselves a new heart and a new spirit. For unless they make themselves a new heart and spirit, THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR SINS AND DIE! I don't think this is so hard to understand, unless one is reading from his/her own intelligence.

 

[NorrinRadd]

That's different. But you think you earn the gift by having faith.

"Earn" does not enter into it. This is the perpetual Calvinist strawman.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Why do Calvinists even care when people are only doing what God made them to do. Frankly, I'm sick of beating around the bush. Either God is directly responsible for evil in the world or he isn't.

But according to Calvinism some part of him willed for the Devil and his angels to fall and for man to fall away. But wait, then God has the nerve to throw a hissy fit over something he did and punish living creatures for eternity over something that is entirely his fault to begin with? I don't know about he rest of you, but if that's how God is, hell is starting to sound better and better.

Indeed. A "god" that creates people to do evil, then commands them to not do what he created them to do, then punishes them for doing what they were created to do instead of doing the impossible he commanded them to do is clearly insane and not to be trusted or worshiped.

 

[sdowney717]

Indeed. A "god" that creates people to do evil, then commands them to not do what he created them to do, then punishes them for doing what they were created to do instead of doing the impossible he commanded them to do is clearly insane and not to be trusted or worshiped.

What your talking about is the curse,
for example God saying on you and your descendants after you, he will rejoice to bring evil upon you.

58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God.

63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.

Christ redeemed believers from the curse of the Law.

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Paul wrote this to gentile believers. That they have been redeemed from that curse.

 

[sdowney717]

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Sway means power ro rule and control.
v19, as a part of the curse, Satan has authority in the earth.
Satan can not touch whatever is born of God.
Everything else, Satan is authorized by God and Satan rules over the world of men.
Recall the temptation of Christ.
Christ came to destroy the works of the Devil, who had legal authority from God. His propitiation is only for believing sinners. All the rest are under God's wrath.
Satan is under control of God, look how God and Satan interacted in Job.
Satan has to request of God to torment or cause trouble for believers, Job, Peter for example, Satan came to Christ to request that he could sift Peter like wheat. Otherwise Satan likely is authorized to touch thse who are not born of God to do with as he wills.

2 Timothy 2:26
New King James Version (NKJV)
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Satan is called a ruler and has various principalities and powers under his rule.

God testifies He rejoiced to bring evil upon those who sinned and their descendants.

So instead of questioning God about what He is doing, rather rejoice if your name is written in heaven. Because He redeemed you from the curse HE pronounced on sin in the world.

Romans 11

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 

[Hammster]

"Earn" does not enter into it. This is the perpetual Calvinist strawman.

Not really. If God only saves those who do something first (believe), then that's earning or meriting salvation.

 

[Hammster]

Then perhaps you could enlighten me concerning the very words of God in Ezekiel 18.

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

It's not hard to notice that God will judge Israel according to their conduct. To which, God gave them this command - "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions".

Why? "...so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you."

Concerning their transgressions mentioned in verse 30, God then tells Israel to "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed."

Again, why? (read carefully) ...to make themselves a new heart and a new spirit. For unless they make themselves a new heart and spirit, THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR SINS AND DIE! I don't think this is so hard to understand, unless one is reading from his/her own intelligence.

And once again, they failed. They didn't obey because of their sinfulness. Therefore, God had to give them a new heart.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is because whether or not the two words mean exactly the same thing or not - doesn't change your lack of logic concerning the silly idea that God decrees something based on what He sees happening in His universe in the future.

I reject your understanding of my view. We aren't even speaking of decrees here. The issue is choice and election.

God chooses to save believers. No election. 1 Cor 1:21

God unconditionally elects ALL believers to special privilege and service. Eph 1:4

The problem is that you (apparently) don't believe that we live and move and have our being in the Word of God.

This is nonsense. of course I do.

The problem is that you (apparently) don't believe that all things exist through Him, for Him, and in Him have their being.

More nonsense.

That clearly means that nothing can happen without His decreeing that it happen and in that decreeing carry it through to it's conclusion of happening.

It is quite obvious that nothing occurs apart from His permission. And many things occur directly because He causes them.

I take it from your wave goodby that you sense that you are reaching a point where your folly will be evident to all and wish to bail out.

Much more nonsense. It is very apparent that you have no idea what you've been talking about.

So be it. Just don't expect anyone to believe that it is for any other reason.

I don't expect that you've been following this discussion at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Indeed. A "god" that creates people to do evil, then commands them to not do what he created them to do, then punishes them for doing what they were created to do instead of doing the impossible he commanded them to do is clearly insane and not to be trusted or worshiped.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not really. If God only saves those who do something first (believe), then that's earning or meriting salvation.

Please prove how simply believing something (anything) can be called work that is compensated. Otherwise you have no point.

Paul clearly distinguished between faith and works in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

 

[Hammster]

Please prove how simply believing something (anything) can be called work that is compensated. Otherwise you have no point.

Paul clearly distinguished between faith and works in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

In your theology, it's a reward for doing something good, not as result of God doing something good.