Why do Arminians...

[Skala]

Why do Arminians always argue against election?

Don't they, too, believe in election?

For example, here is one Arminian who makes arguments about the elect:

Has any of the elect from before creation ever not been justified, or ever experienced hellfire? So, the elect are really never in any danger of perishing and they aren't really being saved from anything, right?

Arminians believe in election, too. The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is not whether or not people were elected before the foundation of the world, but rather, on what basis they were elected. That is the only difference.

Yet here is an Arminian poster who is making an argument against Calvinism in that the elect never experience hellfire, and thus were never really in danger of perishing, etc. He thinks he's arguing against Calvinism, but in fact he's arguing against Arminianism too, because Arminianism believes in election and believes that the elect are those who believe and persevere to the end!

 

[gmm4Jesus]

And the quote you used from me does NOT argue against election! But, it goes to the basis... which, for the Arminian is in-time faith and for the Calvinist is a before time and unconditional (or, an unknown condition).

Under the Arminian basis, a person becomes elect BY faith so if someone does not have faith they are not elected and will perish; while under the Calvinist system a person, has been elected TO have faith and never really stands in any threat of perishing. So, the Calvinist position makes mute verses that state that before belief one stands condemned (not really for the elect), and that like the rest we were under wrath (not really for the elect), and we were alienated from God (not really for the elect), and so on... While these verse are very true for the Arminian.

So, your opening question misrepresents Arminians in general and my statement specifically.

 

[Skala]

And the quote you used from me does NOT argue against election! But, it goes to the basis... which, for the Arminian is in-time faith and for the Calvinist is a before time and unconditional (or, an unknown condition).

Under the Arminian basis, a person becomes elect BY faith so if someone does not have faith they are not elected and will perish; while under the Calvinist system a person, has been elected TO have faith and never really stands in any threat of perishing. So, the Calvinist position makes mute verses that state that before belief one stands condemned (not really for the elect), and that like the rest we were under wrath (not really for the elect), and we were alienated from God (not really for the elect), and so on... While these verse are very true for the Arminian.

So, your opening question misrepresents Arminians in general and my statement specifically.

Not quite. Even in Arminianism, election happened "before the foundation of the world" (because the Bible teaches it)

The only difference between Calvinistic Election and Arminian Election is not when it happened, but why it happened. The "when" is the same.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

The "why" for the Arminian happens in-time.

 

[Hammster]

The "why" for the Arminian happens in-time.

Was God unaware it would happen?

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Hey Hammster.

Yes, I am sure God foreknows and elects before creation because He is Eternal. But again, the effective event that makes someone elect is in-time faith.

For the most part, it seems Calvinists want to maintain God's Justice by saying that He chose some out of a pool of depraved sinners deserving of hell (when before creation, actually no one even Adam had sinned), and left others to themselves. In other words, trying to blame man for his damnation and not God. However, placing the basis of God's choice (not just the choice), but the basis of the choice before time; both logically and Scripturally does a poor job in satisfying His Justness.

The Arminian view also places the blame on man for not being elect, but this is done by placing the basis of election upon in-time faith and his GENUINE in-time opportunity and refusal of salvation. So yes, God knows who will resist His grace and refuse His salvation (Acts 7:51, You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!) from before creation, but it maintains His Justness by the GENUINE in-time opportunity. For the Calvinist, there never is a genuine opportunity. You are either were born into the world chosen to be saved, or you were born into the world chosen to be damned.

Greater revelation is proved to be genuine opportunity by verses that attach greater blame with the refusal of that revelation....

Heb 10:29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[Hammster]

Hey Hammster.

Yes, I am sure God foreknows and elects before creation because He is Eternal. But again, the effective event that makes someone elect is in-time faith.

For the most part, it seems Calvinists want to maintain God's Justice by saying that He chose some out of a pool of depraved sinners deserving of hell (when before creation, actually no one even Adam had sinned), and left others to themselves. In other words, trying to blame man for his damnation and not God. However, placing the basis of God's choice (not just the choice), but the basis of the choice before time; both logically and Scripturally does a poor job in satisfying His Justness.

The Arminian view also places the blame on man for not being elect, but this is done by placing the basis of election upon in-time faith and his GENUINE in-time opportunity and refusal of salvation. So yes, God knows who will resist His grace and refuse His salvation (Acts 7:51, You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!) from before creation, but it maintains His Justness by the GENUINE in-time opportunity. For the Calvinist, there never is a genuine opportunity. You are either were born into the world chosen to be saved, or you were born into the world chosen to be damned.

Greater revelation is proved to be genuine opportunity by verses that attach greater blame with the refusal of that revelation....

Heb 10:29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

If God foresaw their faith, were they ever in danger of Hell?

 

[sdowney717]

People forget some critical part of mercy and wrath. The wrath part.
People are sinners, they do not deserve mercy but wrath.
God chooses out of His mercy to save some and it has nothing to do with God looking down a future lifetime watching them to see them chose for God and then electing on forseen faith. God calls all things into existence before they existed. There is no prior or future creature existence that God bases His decisions on. Which is why persons are elected before the world was.

All deserve death, destruction and most do get what they deserve. Few find the path that leads to eternal life.
Do your really think God loves us because we loved God first?

Scripture says We love because He loved us first.

I just had an interesting thread on another forum and was accused of my theology being man based false teaching.
Interesting that Arminianism switches the love part the opposite of Deterministic Calvinism.
What does it say, woe to those who call light darkness, and darkness light?

 

[gmm4Jesus]

If God foresaw their faith, were they ever in danger of Hell?

Yes, until they believed in-time. Forseeing something doesn't make a thing happen, but the thing happening makes it able to be foreseen.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

God chooses out of His mercy to save some and it has nothing to do with God looking down a future lifetime watching them to see them chose for God and then electing on forseen faith.

You don't believe that God is omniscient???

God calls all things into existence before they existed. There is no prior or future creature existence that God bases His decisions on. Which is why persons are elected before the world was.

Wrong.

Instead of acting unconditionally, God reveals to us by using the term “because” that He many times chooses to act or interact with humanity based upon conditions. God sovereignly chooses to respond to our free will decisions, which include unregenerate man’s ability to believe. God does this without impinging on our free will. If He were to impinge on our free will, He would become the direct cause and He could never say, “Because you”, or “Because...” anything other than, “Because I.” Instead many more times than space will allow (I’ve counted at least 70 times just from Genesis to Jeremiah alone) God reveals to us that He responds based on conditions set or caused by men. Because you… Because of you… Because of them… Because I found you… Here are just a few examples:

Gen 6:13-14 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Gen 22:15-18 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Ex 1:21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.

Num 14:24-25 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

Josh 6:17-18 Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall be spared, because she hid the spies we sent.

Josh 14:14-15 So Hebron has belonged to Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite ever since, because he followed the LORD, the God of Israel, wholeheartedly.

1 Kings 3:6 Solomon answered, "You have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart. You have continued this great kindness to him and have given him a son to sit on his throne this very day.

2 Kings 10:30 The LORD said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in accomplishing what is right in my eyes and have done to the house of Ahab all I had in mind to do, your descendants will sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation."

1 Chron 5:20-21 They were helped in fighting them, and God handed the Hagrites and all their allies over to them, because they cried out to him during the battle. He answered their prayers, because they trusted in him.

2 Chron 12:12 Because Rehoboam humbled himself, the LORD's anger turned from him, and he was not totally destroyed. Indeed, there was some good in Judah.

2 Chron 19:2-3 Jehu the seer, the son of Hanani, went out to meet him and said to the king, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, the wrath of the LORD is upon you. 3 There is, however, some good in you, for you have rid the land of the Asherah poles and have set your heart on seeking God."

2 Chron 34:27 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD.

John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, until they believed in-time. Forseeing something doesn't make a thing happen, but the thing happening makes it able to be foreseen.

So God's foreknowledge isn't perfect?

 

[gmm4Jesus]

So God's foreknowledge isn't perfect?

It is. But again, the knowledge of something doesn't determine the thing. The thing determines what is known. (Even though my knowledge isn't perfect) I knew you would respond to my last post. My knowing that you would respond, did not make you respond.

 

[Hammster]

It is. But again, the knowledge of something doesn't determine the thing. The thing determines what is known. (Even though my knowledge isn't perfect) I knew you would respond to my last post. My knowing that you would respond, did not make you respond.

Knowledge may not determine our action. But it surely must play a part in His decisions. In other words, if He absolutely knows that we will believe, to Him it's a done deal. So there's zero percent chance that anyone He knows will believe will end up in hell.

 

[sdowney717]

Knowledge may not determine our action. But it surely must play a part in His decisions. In other words, if He absolutely knows that we will believe, to Him it's a done deal. So there's zero percent chance that anyone He knows will believe will end up in hell.

I view it as He knows we will believe because he created it to be so according to His will.
So there is no uncertainty with God.

Throwing free will into this, consider also that before we existed, where was our will?
So if God creates something, designs it to function in a particular way or fashion, then it works as He intended. In this way our free will is directed by our Creator because of How we were fashioned, designed to work.

Prov 16

4 The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Even here Paul notes people will chafe against this truth, most people do not agree or believe God does this.

 

[Hammster]

I view it as He knows we will believe because he created it to be so according to His will.
So there is no uncertainty with God.

Throwing free will into this, consider also that before we existed, where was our will?
So if God creates something, designs it to function in a particular way or fashion, then it works as He intended. In this way our free will is directed by our Creator because of How we were fashioned, designed to work.

Prov 16


Romans 9
Even here Paul notes people will chafe against this truth, most people do not agree or believe God does this.

I'm not disagreeing. My point to gmm is that even in his understanding of election, the elect are never in danger of hell.

 

[sdowney717]

I'm not disagreeing. My point to gmm is that even in his understanding of election, the elect are never in danger of hell.

I am just 'coming alongside' as an encourager.

Yes, only the elect are saved. Jesus says they are 'His own elect' of Matt 24. for whom God shortens the days
They are the elect for which Paul endures all things.
They are the elect of God for sprinkling with His blood and obedience to Christ of Peter.
If Paul only endures for the elect, who are the others, who are not elect, they must exist since not all are elect, the ones who are perishing.

Such a concept of elect and non-elect is reprehensible to naturally minded persons. Maybe not all naturally minded persons.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Knowledge may not determine our action. But it surely must play a part in His decisions. In other words, if He absolutely knows that we will believe, to Him it's a done deal. So there's zero percent chance that anyone He knows will believe will end up in hell.

There is a zero percent chance that something already done (past tense) could be (future tense) done differently, only because it was already done. You are speaking from an omniscient perspective, but just because God has an omniscient perspective doesn't mean there aren't genuine in-time decisions. It is the decision that determines what will be seen, or (for God) was seen.

So again, the basis of election is a foreseen in-time event, not a before creation mystery.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

I view it as He knows we will believe because he created it to be so according to His will.
So there is no uncertainty with God.

Throwing free will into this, consider also that before we existed, where was our will?
So if God creates something, designs it to function in a particular way or fashion, then it works as He intended. In this way our free will is directed by our Creator because of How we were fashioned, designed to work.

Prov 16


Romans 9
Even here Paul notes people will chafe against this truth, most people do not agree or believe God does this.

Then you must also believe that He knows who will not believe, and who will do all sorts of evil because he created it to be so according to His will. Is this what God intended? Did Adam to Fall because God intended him to do so?

 

[gmm4Jesus]

ISuch a concept of elect and non-elect is reprehensible to naturally minded persons. Maybe not all naturally minded persons.

The concept of unconditional election is reprehensible to spiritually minded persons.

 

[Hammster]

There is a zero percent chance that something already done (past tense) could be (future tense) done differently, only because it was already done. You are speaking from an omniscient perspective, but just because God has an omniscient perspective doesn't mean there aren't genuine in-time decisions. It is the decision that determines what will be seen, or (for God) was seen.

So again, the basis of election is a foreseen in-time event, not a before creation mystery.

Now, can you prove that from scripture?