Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be exist?

[dc87]

I see only three issues in this:

1. The driver existed before being forced into the car - there is no evidence to suggest that we existed before birth.

For the sake of analogy, let us assume he just wakes up in the car with no memory and no knowledge of existence before. (as far as he knows, he has been created just like Adam as a grown human)

2. The obstacles (temptations) that the driver encounters is largely dependent upon his character - therefore a reflection upon his education, society and family.

Ok... what would this change in the analogy?

3. Whether the driver is liable for the damage to or by the vehicle, is largely dependent upon his onus/culpability (fault/cause) - hence my central question.

Where this culpability comes from is what we are asking here.

Ok allow me to update the analogy a tad for the first point...

"The driver (man) wakes up, with no memory, in the drivers seat of a car: hands duct-taped to the wheel; gear shift removed and stuck in 1st gear; ignition has been removed also. The driver is therefore forced to steer until the road ends. During this trip the driver encounters many many obstacles (temptations) that can do damage to the vehicle. The driver can also drive the car off the road at any time (suicide) or can choose to continue driving until the road ends. Regardless, at the end of trip, the driver is then held liable for any damage incurred to the vehicle."

Is this a fair analogy of life? Once it is... I will pose a question.

 

[Serving Zion]

For the sake of analogy, let us assume he just wakes up in the car with no memory and no knowledge of existence before. (as far as he knows, he has been created just like Adam as a grown human)



Ok... what would this change in the analogy?



Where this culpability comes from is what we are asking here.

Ok allow me to update the analogy a tad for the first point...

"The driver (man) wakes up, with no memory, in the drivers seat of a car: hands duct-taped to the wheel; gear shift removed and stuck in 1st gear; ignition has been removed also. The driver is therefore forced to steer until the road ends. During this trip the driver encounters many many obstacles (temptations) that can do damage to the vehicle. The driver can also drive the car off the road at any time (suicide) or can choose to continue driving until the road ends. Regardless, at the end of trip, the driver is then held liable for any damage incurred to the vehicle."

Is this a fair analogy of life? Once it is... I will pose a question.

It can never be a direct analogy, so I say let's go ahead to draw your observations. If the analogy fails to transpose to reality, it will become apparent at that time.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

For the sake of analogy, let us assume he just wakes up in the car with no memory and no knowledge of existence before. (as far as he knows, he has been created just like Adam as a grown human)



Ok... what would this change in the analogy?



Where this culpability comes from is what we are asking here.

Ok allow me to update the analogy a tad for the first point...

"The driver (man) wakes up, with no memory, in the drivers seat of a car: hands duct-taped to the wheel; gear shift removed and stuck in 1st gear; ignition has been removed also. The driver is therefore forced to steer until the road ends. During this trip the driver encounters many many obstacles (temptations) that can do damage to the vehicle. The driver can also drive the car off the road at any time (suicide) or can choose to continue driving until the road ends. Regardless, at the end of trip, the driver is then held liable for any damage incurred to the vehicle."

Is this a fair analogy of life? Once it is... I will pose a question.

It isn't fair, but God isn't fair. He is just, which is the double edged sword.

If He was fair, then an eye for an eye would be His spiel, and everyone would go to hell anyway - since if I ask for vengeance from God against my enemies, and He does it, then I am fair game for anyone else who feels equally slighted by me.

His "justice" is what is problematic sometimes, I think, because it is categorically extra human in execution. It seems to leave people in a masochistic vacuum of confusion and confounding, as our *hope* is that we will be justified concerning how we have been wronged.

Your analogy is a good description of how one may feel regarding existing. I would include that, perhaps God puts up road signs for us to help us (Hill, curving road ahead, falling rock zone, etc.) But, with no control over your "vehicle," the question the becomes an issue of our ability to avoid these things in the first place, and why (if our vehicle doesn't work properly) we "woke up" on this road in general. Why is our vehicle trash, and why can't we "wake up" in cars with at least some control of the vehicle? An argument on this would equate our marginal control of the vehicle with our free choice. That, we have no control over being born into a curse (a malfunctioning car) and we still have to go down the road with as marginal incident as possible (righteousness,) despite our vehicle being much less than decent.

And, if we add that we have to accept the damages done to a vehicle already unsuitable to drive, it becomes a frustrating issue of control, and providence.

Clearly some people make down a road with marginal, or minimal damage to vehicle - depending on their talent and experience.

 

[Serving Zion]

(Just keep in mind, that we begin with no talent or experience, and as we journey, it is others who have been journeying that have trained us to drive; as likewise we share our own experiences with others who are on their journey).

.. carry on!

 

[dc87]

It can never be a direct analogy, so I say let's go ahead to draw your observations. If the analogy fails to transpose to reality, it will become apparent at that time.

Ok... im sure it is already known what I am going to ask.

Why am I responsible for this vehicle if I was placed in this car through no choice of mine?

 

[Serving Zion]

Ok... im sure it is already known what I am going to ask.

Why am I responsible for this vehicle if I was placed in this car through no choice of mine?

It is because you have an opportunity to interfere with the journey that others are having, if you should choose to do so.

 

[dc87]

It is because you have an opportunity to interfere with the journey that others are having, if you should choose to do so.

? ok assume there are no other drivers/vehicles present....

 

[Serving Zion]

? ok assume there are no other drivers/vehicles present....

That makes it an invalid analogy.

 

[joinfree]

This is a frustration of mine. I'm not necessarily a non believer. But this is a topic anyone could ask so I ask it here.

I did not ask to be born. Why does God hold me accountable for anything?....

Fact is: you can not have asked to be born. So, your birth is not violation of your human rights.

 

[dc87]

That makes it an invalid analogy.

It is because you have an opportunity to interfere with the journey that others are having, if you should choose to do so.

Are you saying that God judges us solely on how we interact with others?!
Are you saying that a hermit/recluse who has minimal to no contact with other humans could possibly see heaven without knowing Jesus?!

4/10 of the commandments have nothing to do with other people.

 

[Serving Zion]

Are you saying that God judges us solely on how we interact with others?!

I would expect so, yes; but not only directly but also indirectly (environmental sustainability toward subsequent generations, for example). Otherwise, what harm could be done that would require us to give an account? Certainly this is what the two greatest commandments are about, and the judgement in Matthew 25:31-46 describes this too.

I'm quite interested to know why this seemed to surprise you; is it different than what you thought Christianity teaches?

Are you saying that a hermit/recluse who has minimal to no contact with other humans could possibly see heaven without knowing Jesus?!

Rather than assume that a hermit/recluse would not know Jesus, I'd say that he would probably lack knowledge of the history of Jesus in Israel 2,000 years ago (as we would too, if it weren't for the records in the bible). I would not assume though that God is unable to have a relationship with this person, because He had a relationship with Abraham and Noah, etc, before the bible was written. He even has a relationship with those who have been indoctrinated by other religious knowledge too, and they perhaps just have not had an opportunity to recognise that it is Him that they are worshipping (John 10:16, 2 Peter 2:2).

Also, keep in mind that this isolated person is capable of choosing to live obediently to the truth and to esteem morality, maintaining a clear conscience so as to be capable of rendering account without guilt on the day of judgement (see John 15:22).

4/10 of the commandments have nothing to do with other people.

The first four are about not misrepresenting God. Whether we represent God faithfully, in fact, has a huge impact on how we interact with others - because He is The Holy One who shows no favouritism (Ephesians 6:9) but renders to every person the fruit of their deeds (Jeremiah 17:10).

God is love. He who stays in love stays in God, and God in him. Yet, when people worship false gods and depart from The Holy Spirit, then they begin to believe contradictory philosophies and in turn begin to act in a manner that contradicts love. This makes the topic of God very confusing for those seeking Him. That creates all sorts of problems, hence why the love of God is the first of the two greatest commandments.

 

[dc87]

I would expect so, yes; but not only directly but also indirectly (environmental sustainability toward subsequent generations, for example). Otherwise, what harm could be done that would require us to give an account? Certainly this is what the two greatest commandments are about, and the judgement in Matthew 25:31-46 describes this too.

I'm quite interested to know why this seemed to surprise you; is it different than what you thought Christianity teaches?

Rather than assume that a hermit/recluse would not know Jesus, I'd say that he would probably lack knowledge of the history of Jesus in Israel 2,000 years ago (as we would too, if it weren't for the records in the bible). I would not assume though that God is unable to have a relationship with this person, because He had a relationship with Abraham and Noah, etc, before the bible was written. He even has a relationship with those who have been indoctrinated by other religious knowledge too, and they perhaps just have not had an opportunity to recognise that it is Him that they are worshipping (John 10:16, 2 Peter 2:2).

Also, keep in mind that this isolated person is capable of choosing to live obediently to the truth and to esteem morality, maintaining a clear conscience so as to be capable of rendering account without guilt on the day of judgement (see John 15:22).

The first four are about not misrepresenting God. Whether we represent God faithfully, in fact, has a huge impact on how we interact with others - because He is The Holy One who shows no favouritism (Ephesians 6:9) but renders to every person the fruit of their deeds (Jeremiah 17:10).

God is love. He who stays in love stays in God, and God in him. Yet, when people worship false gods and depart from The Holy Spirit, then they begin to believe contradictory philosophies and in turn begin to act in a manner that contradicts love. This makes the topic of God very confusing for those seeking Him. That creates all sorts of problems, hence why the love of God is the first of the two greatest commandments.

yes this is news to me. it is being stated that one does not sin through their mind and spirit but rather through outward action or nonaction (as that is the only thing that can truly affect others).

for example if something were to happen that upset me and i curse God in my mind - that doesnt affect anyone else. thats just between me and God. but you are saying we can only sin against God if it affects others.
this is definitely NOT what is being taught in churches.

 

[Serving Zion]

if something were to happen that upset me and i curse God in my mind

Can you please give the example you had in mind?

 

[dc87]

Can you please give the example you had in mind?

Sure, say I was mowing the lawn and hit a rock and immediately thought and maybe muttered some expletives directed toward God for letting me hit that rock. Silly and stupid I know but it can happen. Regardless i just accused God of something He likely did not do and cursed at Him for it. Regardless I will go on about my day and will forget about the rock (who cares I have spare blades). Therefore, I will be just as happy when I'm done mowing as when I started and therefore it affects no other human.

 

[Serving Zion]

Sure, say I was mowing the lawn and hit a rock and immediately thought and maybe muttered some expletives directed toward God for letting me hit that rock. Silly and stupid I know but it can happen. Regardless i just accused God of something He likely did not do and cursed at Him for it. Regardless I will go on about my day and will forget about the rock (who cares I have spare blades). Therefore, I will be just as happy when I'm done mowing as when I started and therefore it affects no other human.

.. So, how has that done a harm that God would require you to be accountable for?

 

[dc87]

.. So, how has that done a harm that God would require you to be accountable for?

simple. I have charged God wrongfully and attempted to condemn the Creator. This means that temporarily we are placing ourselves higher than God and breaking the first commandment.

Do you think Jesus ever thought evil things about the Father and wanted to curse Him? Do you think that Jesus ever had evil thoughts PERIOD about anything? Because if He did He would have fallen... God Himself would have fallen.

 

[Serving Zion]

simple. I have charged God wrongfully and attempted to condemn the Creator. This means that temporarily we are placing ourselves higher than God and breaking the first commandment.

Ok, but I am still looking to establish why this is a bad thing (ie: what harm has it caused that needs to be accounted for).

If it is only between you and God, do you not think that He is big enough to understand and absorb your frustration while it releases your distress?

Do you think Jesus ever thought evil things about the Father and wanted to curse Him? Do you think that Jesus ever had evil thoughts PERIOD about anything? Because if He did He would have fallen... God Himself would have fallen.

I am not really comfortable with speculation.

 

[dc87]

Ok, but I am still looking to establish why this is a bad thing (ie: what harm has it caused that needs to be accounted for).

If it is only between you and God, do you not think that He is big enough to understand and absorb your frustration while it releases your distress?

I dont think there is anything that He doesnt understand. That doesnt mean you wont be judged for it. If it is agreed that judging God is a sin (which most people would say) then it therefore needs to be paid for. We are judged based on the law not on if God 'understands' us.

 

[Petros2015]

I did not ask to be born.

Are you sure? Maybe you just forgot.

 

[dc87]

Are you sure? Maybe you just forgot.

A possibility.... if so then I am a complete moron for saying yes!