• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    25 For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet.

    Enemies under His feet indicates subjection (1 Cor.15:25). Compare the context:

    27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted. 28 Now when all shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all to Him, so that God may be all in all.

    All - get that, ALL - will be "in subjection under His feet" (v.27). And regarding that "all" God will be IN them "all" (v.28). That is universal salvation.

    22 For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private

    It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

    1 Cor 6:9-11

    "Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

    "And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

    As a commentator says:

    "Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

    "They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

    So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html



    Again you are evading answering the question with a simple yes or no:

    Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism?

    Either you think it is a proof text against universalism or you don't.

    If you don't think it refutes universalism, why keep posting it? What's the point if it's irrelevant to the discussion.

    Ditto for the parallel passages you posted: Eph.5:5 & Gal.5:19-21 along with 1 Cor.6:9-11.



    Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as
    a "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.


    Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong! My comment made no such argument. Neither did it state anything "must/will happen". Instead it was an argument against your position stating:

    Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as a
    "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

    Irrelevant to my point that your 1 Cor.6:9-11, etc, texts do not disprove universalism. I've shown you are wrong in implying they are "proof texts" against universalism.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  3. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

    +1,003
    United States
    Baptist
    Private
    We'll have to agree that we disagree on this one.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private

    That's false. As an investigation into the matter would easily prove.



    Actually many of your posts are copy/pasted from your own files. You repeatedly copy/paste the same posts over & over again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Number 1 does not list Phil.2:10. Number 2 does.

    The following 20 points, with slight modifications, are quoted from pages 197-200 at:

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11 NASB).

    "Is this forced worship, or one offered genuinely from the heart? Below are 20 points that together, I believe, unmistakably affirm true worship.

    (1.) According to Vine, ―"bow", (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, "to bend") "is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phil. 2:10)." While, he says, sunkamptō "signifies "to bend completely together, to bend down by compulsory force" (Rom. 11:10)." 1

    (2.) The phrase ― "confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" was used in early baptismal services by which those being baptized expressed their commitment to Christ or declared they had been saved through Christ.2 Now, since "under the earth" refers to the abode of the dead (or hell), then even in death an opportunity remains to confess Christ unto salvation.

    (3.) "No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3). This is strong evidence it refers to a sincere worship since fear alone could bring about a forced worship without the need of the Holy Spirit moving the heart.

    (4.) Paul links mouth confession with salvation. "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus…you will be saved…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).

    (5.) This worship brings Him glory. A forced worship would not glorify or satisfy a loving God. "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Mt. 15:8).

    (6.) That this is true worship is confirmed in Rev. 5:13 and by the entire context (Rev. 5:11-14) if they are related. "Every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth…I heard saying: 'Blessing, honor, glory, power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb'…" (Re. 5:13). Why would these two contexts not be related?

    (7.) The word "confess" in this passage is the same Greek word exomologeomai that Christ used in praising His Father in Mt. 11:25 and Lu. 10:21. It is used 11 times: Mt. 3:6; 11:25; Mk. 1:5; Lu. 10:21; 22:6; Ac. 19:18; Ro. 14:11; 15:9; Ph. 2:11; Ja. 5:16; and Re. 3:5. None of these can be seen as "forced" praise. They relate to what flows naturally from the heart. For example, Jesus exclaimed, "I heartily praise Thee, Father…that Thou hast hidden these things…" (Mt. 11:25 Wey). The NIV and the NAS read, "I praise you Father." Ro. 15:9 RSV states, "I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name" (See the NIV, NAS, TEV, Phillips, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NEB, WEY, and so forth). The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament says exomologeomai is the Greek word used in Psalms for "praise" (yadah) and "give thanks" (hoday) in the Septuagint used in Christ‘s time. Simply reading Psalms confirms the genuine worship of Ph. 2:11.3

    (8.) Ken Eckerty in an article titled, "The Work of the Cross," said:

    "I think it‘s significant that the bowing of every knee and the confessing of every tongue is done "in" the name of Jesus, not "at" as translated by the KJV. Scholars such as Vincent, Robertson, Young, Rotherham, and Bullinger (just to name a few) all say that it is best translated "in". "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I.…" Mt.18:20 "In" Christ‘s name implies an "entering into" or an intimacy with His name. Confession "in" His name cannot mean anything but intimacy."4

    To accurately understand Ph. 2:9-11, we must go to the Old Testament from where it is quoted. Let us look closely at Is. 45:21-25:

    21.There is no other God beside Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. 22. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. 24. He shall say, ‗Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. 25.In the LORD all the descendents of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.

    (9.) "Surely in the LORD I have righteousness" (vs. 24). Only a genuine believer could say this. Note that this is stated as an oath (vs. 23), making it especially pertinent.

    (10.) Those who are incensed against Him shall be ashamed (vs. 24). Being ashamed is usually a positive thing and often a sign of genuine repentance. 2Ch. 30:15; Ezra 9:5-7; Job 19:3; Jer. 6:13-15, 8:12, 12:13, 31:18- 20, Ez. 16:60-63, 36:31-33; 2Th. 3:14-15.

    (11.) "All the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory" (vs. 25). Justification and glory are undeniable evidences of genuine repentance.

    (12.) "Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and WILL SUBDUE our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:18-19)." Is subduing iniquity forcing insincere worship?

    (13.) "He is ABLE even to SUBDUE all ―things" to Himself (Ph. 3:21). Note: "things" is not in the Greek and that this is said in the very same letter!

    (14.) "How AWESOME are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your ENEMIES SHALL SUBMIT THEMSELVES to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name. Selah. Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men" (Ps. 66:3-5). Certainly these passages together with Ph. 2:11 all point to the same glorious worship (Re. 5:13)!

    In Ps. 66:3-5, God is described twice as "awesome" in the very context of "enemies submitting themselves" through His "great" power. And this mind you, is all in the context of "all the earth" worshiping and singing praises to God! David then invites us to come and see how awesome is His doing toward humanity! Where is "forced" worship here? As well, they are "submitting themselves," not "being" submitted. Relative to Mic. 7:18-19, how can a "compassionate subduing" from a God "delighting in mercy" (in the very context of sins cast away) possibly coincide with a forced worship of those eternally being tormented in hell? Now Ph. 3: 21 is found in the very same letter as our key text, making it particularly pertinent. It affirms that God‘s power is "even able" to do something. "Even able" implies something extraordinarily impressive. A compelled submission by brute force is not particularly impressive. But a God winning the hearts of His enemies through His sacrificial love on the cross—that is impressive! That‘s what makes Him truly a most "awesome" and all powerful God!

    (15.) "He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow" (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word "therefore" links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks:

    "Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul‘s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves." ⁵

    The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God‘s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, "Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe."6

    (16.) Salvation is directly mentioned here. "Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Ph. 2:11-13). The word "therefore" is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation.

    (17.) God Himself works in them "to will." Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation.

    (18.) "When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all" (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for "subject" is the same word applied to Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ‘s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated?

    (19.) God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name…. What kind of a worship, sincere or genuine, would highly exalt Christ? I know which one would lowly exalt Him.

    (20.) Finally, some will say, "Of course they‘ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then." But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.

    Why did I go into such detail over this one verse? Because this passage is very well known, quoted, and even sung about. Sadly, it is not truly appreciated for its glorious meaning. I think any honest reflection of these twenty points must agree with the evidence presented, that Ph. 2:9-11 affirms sincere and heartfelt worship.

    1. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Thomas Nelson 1996, p. 75.
    2 Fristad, Kalen. Destined for Salvation. Kearney, NE: Morris, 1997. 14-15. Original source: The Interpreter‘s Bible: A commentary in 12 Volumes. Vol. 11. Nashville: Abingdon, 1955. 51.
    3 Wigram, George W. The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament. n.p. n.p. n.d. 499-500.
    4 Eckerty, Ken. ―The Work of the Cross.http://www.savior-of-all.com/cross.html.
    5 Talbott, Thomas. The Inescapable Love of God. Salem, Oregon: Universal, 1999. 65.
    6 Milton, John. Quoted by Ken Eckerty in ―The Work of the Cross."http://www.savior-ofall.com/cross.html.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

    What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)." https://www.concordant.org/expositions/the-eons/eon-indefinte-duration-part-three/


    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/
     
  7. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It is true that more and more Christians let themselves be bamboozled by the rhetoric of unbelievers. Now it’s not “the wicked/sinful people who receive the justice due them” but just “people tortured in hell forever.” The wicked are changed to (innocent) people. He’ll is changed to (unjust) torture. That Jesus warned of hell more than any other person in the Bible is ignored. Failing to believe the teachings of Christ is changed to “educated.” There is one who equally tried to educate people on not believing Gods word...happened in a garden.
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

    +1,064
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Again, your appeal to authority is quite fallacious. Instead of resorting to that tactic, wrestle with the text and my rationale that I supplied you with instead of avoiding it.

    Is that really your reply? I supplied you with my interpretation based upon my reasoning derived from the text itself. If you don't agree - why don't you reason against it? Your attempt to not even do so reveals a lot about the integrity of your claim.

    Then by all means, respond to my interpretation and provide your counterpoint.

    Are you really claiming that your citation of a completely different word to illustrate supposed hyperbole also proves that aionios is also hyperbole? Ridiculous! You must be in sales as I stated before that that is akin to the old bait and switch tactic. You cannot substitute one word for another and claim that just because one word is used in hyperbole, therefore the other word must also be used as hyperbole. You are right as aionios cannot mean eternity and age at the same time. It has to be one or the other.

    Just what do you suppose was made manifest? Is it not the gospel of Jesus Christ cited in the very preceding verse 25? The gospel which was once SECRET but NOW MANIFEST. I guess according to your understanding this doesn't qualify for God's method does it? Just where in v.26 does aionios refer to God's eternal attribute instead of the means in making the the once hidden gospel now revealed? Does this verse not refer to the age(s)-long process of something that was once a secret but is now manifested? It certainly does not refer to God's eternal attribute. If you think it does, go ahead and show me just where in v.26 does aionios refer to God's eternal nature?
     
  9. Easy Listener

    Easy Listener Member

    145
    +46
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Sir, I understand your position very well. I used to hold it myself. Thing is, as I studied the word and the context surrounding the parable and then, from there went to books and internet studies on the subject - from all sides of the issue - for me, at least, the meaning became crystal clear. That is why I posted a couple of articles supporting the position I now hold, as you have C&P'd for the same reason.

    I definitely see the tide turning as much as it turned during the reformation. That one was sparked by the invention of the printing press and the same thing is happening, at a much greater pace, with the invention of the internet.

    Christian teaching is being purified. This is a good thing.:)
     
  10. Easy Listener

    Easy Listener Member

    145
    +46
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I actually agree with that comment.

    I was stanting on a corner on University way, a block from 45th street near the University of Washington back in 1982 and there was a guy arguing Christianity with new students that were from Christian families. He was Bhudist, IIRC. I started talking with him (I was not a student and had only been a Christian for a little over a year) and his methodology was fascinating, but I was immune to his arguments, for reasons that will become self evident.

    His argument was the pretty standard stuff: You are a Christian because that is how your parents raised you, but Muslims, hindus, etc. believe what they believe because that is how their parents raised them. So they are, therefore, all baloney. It is actually pretty effective against kids that just showed up to VBS church, teen Jesus music concerts, etc., but didn't really STUDY the bible, the meaning and context of the text nor the underlying message of Christianity.

    So yes, Christians can be bamboozled by the rhetoric of unbelievers. The parable of the sower covers that. I believe it would be the seed on the stony ground, or perhaps in the shallow soil, etc.

    But what of those that DO study, in a Berean way, and discover they've been bamboozled by "believers" as much as the Jews of Jesus time were bamboozled by their leadership? That is what is happening, A LOT, now that free discussion of the HARD QUESTIONS is now so rampant. I don't consider it to be a destruction of Christianity. I see it as a destruction of false doctrines (like eternal burning in hell for lost human beings or the prosperity doctrines) and a purification of the Christian message in preparation for his soon return.

    But, YMMV. :)
     
  11. Easy Listener

    Easy Listener Member

    145
    +46
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I suppose it depends on who you talk to.
    I don't see the wicked as "innocent" people. However, the wording in Romans 9 regarding Pharaoh do throw a twist into the whole thing that I've not worked out yet.
    And Jesus never once discussed hell. He did bring up Gehenna quite a bit. And the folks listening to him knew exactly what he was talking about. It's been seriously lost in the translation. And, of course we have John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 to clarify (hint. One path leads to eternal life and the other doesn't)
    Those that disagree with you on many of those things are not failing to believe the teachings of Christ. Quite the opposite. They are going directly to what scripture says and ignoring the teachings of other men regaring what they claim are the teachings of Christ.

    This is the sort of thing Jesus disciples were doing, regarding the teaching of their religious leaders. It is also what Martin Luther and his ilk were doing.

    In a debate with one of the elders in the first church I started attending here, he could not support his arguments against my arguments for Annihilationism (Conditional Immortality - CI), and in frustration, he simply raised his big KJV bible above his head and shouted, with a very red and angry face, "I believe what the word of God says." To which I calmly said, "I do too, [insert name here]. Where we differ is in interpretation."

    And that is why it is good to discuss, and not just blow people off because they disagree with you. After all, because neither you nor I are perfect human beings, both of us are certainly dead wrong about beliefs we hold strongly and dearly. Not all, but some.

    The Lord has blessed me with four bonafide miracles, two of them healings. I've been arguing this stuff with very well educated atheists and "antiChristians" for well over a decade. Had Jesus not given me these miracles, my own faith may have faltered. But he is faithful to keep those who seek him.

    And after we die, I look forward to meeting with you in the "heavenly host coffee bar" in heaven over a triple Latte with whipped cream and we can laugh about all these silly arguments we had over this stuff when we only saw through a glass darkly. :)
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    <ClemA>25.
    For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet.
    Enemies under His feet indicates subjection (1 Cor.15:25). Compare the context:<end>

    You are basing your opinion on what you "think" something "indicates." Christians are willing subjects of a benevolent king, in this life, Jesus' enemies are unwilling subjects of a conquering king after the judgment.
    <ClemA>
    27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted. 28 Now when all shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all to Him, so that God may be all in all.
    All - get that, ALL - will be "in subjection under His feet" (v.27). And regarding that "all" God will be IN them "all" (v.28). That is universal salvation
    .<end>
    The word translated "subjection" is
    υπεταξας/upetaxas is a Verb-Aorist Active Indicative -2d person Singular. Please see my comment above Christians are willing subjects of a benevolent king. Only God's enemies will be forcibly conquered and forced to be unwilling subjects. Do you get that?

    All men are direct descendants by birth "in Adam." All men are not inherently "in Christ." That is a choice that each individual must make for themselves in this life or they die in their sins.
     
  13. Easy Listener

    Easy Listener Member

    145
    +46
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I find it fascinating that so many of our English bibles chose to call Gethsemene what it is called, but converted Gehenna to "Hell", totally messing with our minds.

    And who hasn't been in a bible study that discusses the different words translated as love. e.g. agape, eros.

    Yet who has been in a bible study (before it became seriously discussed as it is today mostly on the internet) on Olam, aion, aionion, aionios? Would people not want to know that the phrase "love this world" could more accurately be translated, "love this age"? Or all the times it described something that had a very short duration indeed.

    And once you actually start examining all the scripture that contained those words in the original greek, the message of the bible is transformed. It's a completely new "book". It changes everything to one degree or another. One teacher even argued that the "heaven" everyone wants to be in is simply another age that has a beginning and an end, followed by other ages. I dunno. I'm still studying it.

    For me, the answer to this whole thing as it applies to my life was when I discovered the answer to the question: Did the rooster crow once, or did it crow twice?
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Quoting a current peer reviewed standard reference which was compiled by four scholars representing about 160-200 years of scholarship is NOT appeal to authority. However your quote from the 100 year old self educated Thayer is an appeal to authority.
    I have done as much as you have. Your "understanding" and "reasoning" does not prove my argument wrong. Merely a different opinion. I would be very careful about throwing around insulting terms such as lack of integrity
    After you amigo.
    Wrong as usual. I provided an example of one word which was used hyperbolically multiple times much in the same way I maintain aionios was.
    <OT>
    Just what do you suppose was made manifest? Is it not the gospel of Jesus Christ cited in the very preceding verse 25? The gospel which was once SECRET but NOW MANIFEST. I guess according to your understanding this doesn't qualify for God's method does it? Just where in v.26 does aionios refer to God's eternal attribute instead of the means in making the the once hidden gospel now revealed? Does this verse not refer to the age(s)-long process of something that was once a secret but is now manifested? It certainly does not refer to God's eternal attribute. If you think it does, go ahead and show me just where in v.26 does aionios refer to God's eternal nature?<end>
    Please explain to me how this relates to the part of my previous post that you quoted. See below.

    Neither Rom 1:20 nor 26:16 say anything about "God's method in relating to mankind." While "power" might be considered part of God' s nature, "Godhead, divinity, Godhood" is not.
    And neither verse says anything about God "works out his will through the ages." The adjective "aionios," vs. 20, is singular not plural and it modifies God not the duration of the world or mankind.

    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [
    αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    ἀΐ́διος/Godhead/Godhood refers to all that God is. αἰώνιος God, refers to God Himself. They are synonymous. To refute this one must provide credible evidence that this cannot be true and that another interpretation is the only correct one.
     
  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

    +287
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Huh? What did Paul teach?
    The Hebrew prophets, he wrote, had predicted that in “days to come” God would restore the tribes of Israel and that the Gentiles would then turn to worship the one true God.

    Romans 11:13–14). In two other places in Romans 11—verses 25–26 (“the full number of the Gentiles [will] come in” and thus “all Israel will be saved”) and 30–31 (“by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy”)

    He called down God’s curse on competing preachers in Galatia (Galatians 1:6–9) and asserted that some of the Christians in Jerusalem were “false brothers” (Galatians 2:4; compare 2 Corinthians 11:26). He preached the death, resurrection, and lordship of Jesus Christ, and he proclaimed that faith in Jesus guarantees a share in his life.

    Those who are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death, and thus they escape the power of sin (e.g., Romans 6) Jesus was raised and still lives, he could return to rescue believers at the time of the Final Judgment. The resurrection is connected to the third major emphasis, the promise of salvation to believers. Paul taught that those who died in Christ would be raised when he returned, while those still alive would be “caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:14–18).

    Note: Pagans believed in immortality of the soul, not Christians.
    Those who belonged to the Son would live with him forever. It was especially difficult for them to refrain from public festivities, since parades, feasts (including free red meat), theatrical performances, and athletic competitions were all connected to pagan religious traditions. Pagans who believed in the immortality of the soul maintained that the soul escaped at death; the body, they knew, decayed. To meet this problem, Paul proclaimed that the resurrection body would be a “spiritual body,” not “flesh and blood” (1 Corinthians 15:42–55);

    Paul did regard it as possible, however, for people to lose or completely betray their faith in Christ and thus lose membership in his body, which presumably would lead to destruction at the Judgment (Romans 11:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16–17; 2 Corinthians 11:13–15).

    Paul, like his Jewish contemporaries the scholar and historian Flavius Josephus and the philosopher Philo Judaeus, completely opposed a long list of sexual practices: prostitution and the use of prostitutes (1 Corinthians 6:15–20), homosexual activities (1 Corinthians 6:9; Romans 1:26–27), sexual relations before marriage (1 Corinthians 7:8–9), and marriage merely for the sake of gratifying physical desire (1 Thessalonians 4:4–5). However, he urged married partners to continue to have sexual relations except during times set aside for prayer (1 Corinthians 7:3–7).

    Paul’s opposition to homosexual activity (1 Corinthians 6:9; Romans 1:26–27) and divorce were generally in keeping with Jewish sexual ethics. Male homosexual activity is condemned in the Hebrew Bible in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13—teachings that Christianity followed, thanks in part to Paul, even as it disregarded most of the laws of Leviticus. Jesus’ prohibition of divorce, along with his view that remarriage after divorce, if the first spouse is still living, is adultery (Mark 10:2–12; Matthew 19:3–9), set him apart from most other Jews and Gentiles.

    Paul accepted the prohibition but made an exception in the case of Christians who were married to non-Christians (1 Corinthians 7:10–16). The consequence has been that, in some forms of Christianity, the only ground for divorce is adultery by the other partner. Until the 20th century the laws of many state and national governments reflected this view.

    Mainstream Judaism did not promote celibacy, because of the biblical mandate, “Be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28); Paul’s second distinctive and long-lasting admonition concerns obedience to secular rulers. In his letter to the Romans 13:2–7, he asserted that “whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment” (13:2).

    Paul, like other Jews, was a monotheist who believed that the God of Israel was the only true God. He also recognized the leader of the forces of evil, whom he called both “the accusers” (1 Corinthians 5:5; 7:5) and that by “the God of this world” the true God, Himself was meant (2 Corinthians 4:4). He declared in 1 Corinthians 8:5 that “there are many gods and many lords” (though he meant “so-called gods”), and in Romans 6–7 he treated sin as a personified or semipersonified power.

    What Paul meant by “Christ” and “Son of God” and seems not to have defined the person of Jesus metaphysically (for example, that he was half human and half divine). Paul states that Christ Jesus “made himself of none effect, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness.”

    God, according to Paul, sent Jesus to save the world if believer was baptized “into Christ,” becoming “one” with him (Galatians 3:27–28).

    When the time was right, God would send Christ back to save the cosmos by defeating all the remaining forces of sin, Kings (Presidents) and the armies of the entire world, and to liberate all of the believing creation. Once Christ defeated all of his enemies, including death, he would turn creation over to God, so that God would be “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:20–28; Romans 8:18–25).

    Revelation19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Mere repentance is not enough to permit escape from the overwhelming power of sin. The escape, rather, requires being “buried with” Christ through baptism. In the Gospels, Jesus prophesies the coming of “the Son of Man,” who will come on the clouds and whose angels will separate the good from the bad (e.g., Mark 13; Matthew 24).
    E.P. Sanders with corrections
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,477
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I find it fascinating that so many of our English bibles chose to call Gethsemene what it is called, but converted Gehenna to "Hell", totally messing with our minds.
    And who hasn't been in a bible study that discusses the different words translated as love. e.g. agape, eros.
    Yet who has been in a bible study (before it became seriously discussed as it is today mostly on the internet) on Olam, aion, aionion, aionios? Would people not want to know that the phrase "love this world" could more accurately be translated, "love this age"? Or all the times it described something that had a very short duration indeed.
    And once you actually start examining all the scripture that contained those words in the original greek, the message of the bible is transformed. It's a completely new "book". It changes everything to one degree or another. One teacher even argued that the "heaven" everyone wants to be in is simply another age that has a beginning and an end, followed by other ages. I dunno. I'm still studying it.
    For me, the answer to this whole thing as it applies to my life was when I discovered the answer to the question: Did the rooster crow once, or did it crow twice?

    There is a historical precedent for translating "gehenna" as "hell."
    According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    ….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief.


     
  17. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You offer hope to the wicked where Jesus only warned. If one person decided to reject Gods salvation preferring the promise of annihilation you offer and it’s not true, you will have to answer for why you offered the wicked what Jesus did not. You tell them they wont suffer forever. Jesus did not.
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

    +568
    Switzerland
    Non-Denom
    Married
    One bamboozle that is waning is dispensationalism and the idea of a rapture and Jesus coming soon.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private

    Sorry, your interpretation is anti-contextual & wrong:

    25 For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet.

    Enemies under His feet indicates subjection (1 Cor.15:25). Compare the context:

    27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted. 28 Now when all shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all to Him, so that God may be all in all.

    All - get that, ALL - will be "in subjection under His feet" (v.27). And regarding that "all" God will be IN them "all" (v.28). That is universal salvation.

    22 For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
     
  20. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian


    Do you or do you not believe in annihilation or eternal torment? Both are contrary to what we are commanded to teach, thus what you teach is false.

    And did you not quote those scriptures as a refutation to the salvation of all men? Yes you did, hence my reply.




    Yes I did reconcile it but you blew my response off with the usual "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"


    Surely you are not referring to your trump analogy? Because you did not reconcile them all you did was show everyone reading that Jesus Christ is the savior of all men, but you don’t and won’t accept that.


    Now it is time for you to explain to me how

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    1 Corinthians 15:50

    Galatians 5:19-21

    Ephesians 5:5

    Do not mean what they say. Which is the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, fornicators, unclean, lascivious, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, whoremongers, unclean person, covetous, corruption shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Show me where Paul or any scriptures specifically, unequivocally say that all 29 of these groups will inherit the kingdom of God.



    What! You want a scripture that plainly says each of these individuals will enter the kingdom? Would it really do any good, we have already seen you reject the plain reading of 1 Tim.


    But as it just so happens scriptures do in fact show these type of individuals will enter the kingdom.


    Matt 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They *said, "The first." Jesus *said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.


    Now tell me DA how the tax collectors and prostitutes get into the kingdom?

    Please, please don’t say God will change them before they get into the kingdom of heaven, because that is the answer I have already given you concerning those verses you used to say 1 Tim cannot mean what it says and you have rejected that understanding.



    I already have reconciled them. That you don't like my answer does not mean I did not make one. You are the one wimping out, because you don't like my response and can't refute it.



    You reconciled nothing with your trump scenario, all you showed was that trump is president whether people like it or not, therefore showing Jesus Christ is the savior of all men whether people like it or not.


    Not only did your attempt to reconcile it backfire, it actually goes to prove my point that Jesus Christ is the savior of all men.


    It is irrelevant who is outside the gate.


    Already addressed. It is irrelevant who is outside the gate unless you can show me a verse or verses which state that those outside the gate obey His commandment and that Jesus has given the the right to to enter the city. Can you do that or not or is all you can do is keep repeating the same irrelevant questions over and over?



    No these verse do NOT show that anyone outside the city may enter. Jesus gives them a choice if they want to.


    Can you read your own proof text? "Whosoever will let him take" Those outside denied God and Jesus in this life, where does it say they want to and will enter the city? It does not say that! It is the same invitation they had and refused in this life


    Wrong as always. Those who teach what Jesus taught "the goats go away into eternal punishment" do not say any of this nonsense, "the Spirit and the bride no longer say come, that those who hear cannot come, that those who thirst cannot come and take of the water of life freely."


    .....Do you think bearing false witness somehow makes you look correct? Read my explanation above. The dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and liars outside the city will still have the same choice they had in this life. Now you show me where they decide to believe in Jesus.



    Are you blind, no wonder you don’t want to look at who is outside the gate.

    Those scriptures tell us someone can enter through the gates of the city and partake of the tree of life.

    Who is it those same scripture say in without the gates?

    One obviously has to be outside the gate to enter through them.

    What do the gates represent?




    What total nonsense. These are defeated enemies on their knees and Jesus has His feet on them, probably on their necks, that is what conquering kings did to their enemies. But you claim they are only taking a break and resting. Defeated enemies don't rest


    So you believe the God who tells us to love our enemies is going to stomp on the necks of His. Eek gad.

    Do you know how God kills His enemies? He makes them his friend.
     
Loading...