Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[Der Alte]

Your reply is laughable except for the fact that you take yourself seriously. Don't you quote from translations that support your view? Quite hypocritical.

The difference between us is, where possible, I quote the latest scholarship, not 140 year old interpretations by a self educated "scholar." Quoting from such sources does not refute the recent scholarship .

Of course not. Did you not read the content of my reply and my reasons for not interpreting those words as synonymous? Reply to my content instead of ignoring it.

As I said I consider your replies to be nothing but "I'm right and you're wrong! Am to! Nuh huh" not a credible argument which refutes anything I posted.

Read it for yourself and provide a counterpoint - if you're capable.

As I said I have not seen any evidence which definitively shows that only your argument is correct and that my argument cannot be correct. A different interpretation does not disprove anything.

Of course there is hyperbole. Your mistake is using your perceived hyperbole using kosmos and attempting to apply the same to a completely different word in aionios. That is sloppy hermeneutics to say the least; otherwise known as bait and switch.

Wrong! I explained why I used another word to illustrate hyperbole in the NT. It would be a logical fallacy circular argument to try to use aionios to prove that aionios mean eternal. There is a literal "whole world"/"all the earth" but in the verses I quoted those phrases do not refer to the literal "whole world"/"all the earth." The two phrases are used "hyperbolically."
.....Aion cannot mean "eternity" and "finite age" at the same time. Aionios cannot mean "eternal" and "finite age long" at the same time. Could they possibly be being used "hyperbolically" in some instances the same way that "whole world"/all the world" are? I have presented my argument and evidence it has not been refuted.

Of course they both refer to God - I didn't ignore it. I demonstrated that one refers to God's nature while the other refers to God's method in relating to mankind. God is eternal and he works out his will through the ages. That seems to be the whoosh that flies over your head

Neither Rom 1:20 nor 26:16 say anything about "God's method in relating to mankind." While "power" might be considered part of God' s nature, "Godhead, divinity, Godhood" is not.
And neither verse says anything about God "works out his will through the ages." The adjective "aionios," vs. 20, is singular not plural and it modifies God not the duration of the world or mankind.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

ἀΐ́διος Godhead/Godhood refers to all that God is. αἰώνιος God, refers to God Himself. They are synonymous. To refute this one must provide credible evidence that this cannot be true and that another interpretation is the only correct one.

 

[Der Alte]

We are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.
Any other gospel, in the same chapter, Paul says is nothing more then a doctrine of devils.

1 Timothy 4:10
(10) For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 15:50
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​

This can't be right in these verses Paul says several times that certain people cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But in 1 Tim 4:10 Paul said that God is the Savior of all men. I guess Paul did not know what he was talking about in 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5 and 1 Cor 15:50 because obviously 1 Tim 4:10 means that God will save everyone no matter what.

 

[Der Alte]

And you completely ignored my questions. So I guess we'll carry on ignoring each other. ;-)

Which will not prevent me from pointing out errors in your posts.

 

[mmksparbud]

when God told Adam and Eve to not of the forbidden tree:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He never even hinted that the wages would be eternally burning torment. And don't bother to say He meat only the first death---it is very clear that He meant death--to cease to exist is the wages of sin

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That is the full penalty of sin---death--eternal, never ending death from which none will ever awaken aging. Complete and utter unconsciousness.

This can't be right in these verses Paul says several times that certain people cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But in 1 Tim 4:10 Paul said that God is the Savior of all men. I guess Paul did not know what he was talking about in 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5 and 1 Cor 15:50 because obviously 1 Tim 4:10 means that God will save everyone no matter what.

It means no such thing---it means exactly what it says---the unrepentant will not be saved and will pay the price of the 2nd death. Jesus died for all men---all--while they were still sinners. But He does not force Himself on anyone. He paid the price, but it is up to them to accept His sacrifice. If they do not, His death FOR THEM, was in vain.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Der Alte]

when God told Adam and Eve to not of the forbidden tree:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
He never even hinted that the wages would be eternally burning torment. And don't bother to say He meat only the first death---it is very clear that He meant death--to cease to exist is the wages of sin

This is interesting. You insist that death in Gen 2:17 means death and nothing else. But did God not say in the day that you eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree you will surely die. Did Adam and Eve actually, literally die the day they ate of the fruit?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
That is the full penalty of sin---death--eternal, never ending death from which none will ever awaken aging. Complete and utter unconsciousness.

Where does this verse say the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgement then a second death?

begin

<MSB>It means no such thing---it means exactly what it says---the unrepentant will not be saved and will pay the price of the 2nd death. Jesus died for all men---all--while they were still sinners. But He does not force Himself on anyone. He paid the price, but it is up to them to accept His sacrifice. If they do not, His death FOR THEM, was in vain.<end>

end

Please show me a verse, preferably more than one, which says that anyone has or will die a second death?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

This verse says three beings, one, the false prophet, is a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

This verse says that death and hell are cast into the LOF and that the LOF is the second death. "Death" is the point in time end of life. It has no physical properties and cannot literally be thrown anywhere. Neither death nor hell are alive so they did not die a first death and cannot die a second death.

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

This passage is one continuous narrative. Parts of it cannot be ripped out and made to appear to refer to earlier events.
Vs. 4 "no more death"
Vs. 5 "all things new"
Vs. 6 "it is done"
Vs. 8 eight groups of people "shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
If there is no more death vs. 4 how can groups of people die a second death vs. 8?

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You accuse God of being cruel for having the authority to make one pot he wants to keep and a second another he doesn't want to keep, not realizing that your own theology that God would condemn men to endless eternal torment is actually more cruel. Without regard of who chose who, and whether predestination is true, electrocution for one hundred years is far worse than electrocution for one minute, and one hundred years isn't even a drop in the bucket in comparison to "endless torment". The very people that accuse God of cruelty for choosing are themselves more cruel by thinking that burning "endlessly" is somehow a righteous punishment.

Nope. I accuse the god of the Calvinists or the Calvinist theology of God to present us with a picture of a Being who is extremely cruel. Since the One True Real God is not cruel at all and has never chosen people for heaven or hell before they were born, as that IS cruel, the theology is wrong. If a Calvinist would admit what his heart and mind are telling him, he/she would see it as well. But it is true that they would have to abandon the very comforting thought that they were predestined for Heaven before they were born no matter how they treat others.

What you are doing is mixing up matters. God choosing some for Heaven and some for hell with no hope or choice or chance has nothing to do with what Hell is. This you mix up. Even the TULIP does not address what hell is.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What it teaches is Luke 16:26 the same as Ecclesiastes 9:5 once you are dead their is nothing you can do about changing you ways to heaven. Whatever you sow you shall reap. Matthew 7:21 not all shall enter the Kingdom of God

That is true but Jesus was also warning of punishment for unrepentant sinners.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Studying the meaning of a name is not an arbitrary way to study scripture as you have craftily tried to compare it in your nonsensical example of arbitrarily grabbing a letter in the name and arbitrarily connecting it to a word. If a true Lazarus were already alive and well with Abraham, there would be no need for a resurrection. If a true rich man were already in the lake of fire, there would be no need for a future resurrection to cast the dead into the lake of fire. According to you they're already there, but because of lack of understanding, you don't understand how taking the parable literally miscontrues the truth contrary to many scriptures.

Well, I can give you names of people whose lives did not measure up to the name. So why do you think a name is everything? The bit about the first letter of the name came at the moment. If I gave it more time, I could give an even more plausible explanation right out of my imagination as you or someone you like did.

And your whimisical account of Lazarus being similiar to Elizar is absurd. The account is to warn men about hell by describing a real event. The rest of Jesus' teaching is such.

And names, frankly speaking, are only as good as the character of the owner. No more and no less. The name Jesus was not uncommon, you know. To listen to you, one would think there was only one man in all of history named Jesus since names are important.

You do not seem to understand the account. The men were not "alive and well" as they had died. This you miss. Pretty fundamental to the story but you nevertheless missed it.

I do not fully understand the matter of being in torment after death, which I do believe as it matches the warnings of Jesus, and the final judgement. I do not have to understand it though as I know that I am going to be present with the Lord when I die if I continue in the grace given to me to walk with Him. What I know is the punishment after death is aweful and to be avoided if one listens to anyone who knew God who talked about it. Good enough at this point. I do not need to know the details to know that falling from an airplane with no parachute, for example, is bad. I just need to know that I do not want it happening to me.

So the problem with your interpretation is you completely undo the purpose of the account. Jesus told the experience to warm people. Your explanation comforts them, same as my imagined one

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Just exactly what do you mean by that quip?

The theology of Calvinism is a destructive doctrine that has done a great deal of damage to the church both inside and outside. The being depicted as god is more cruel than the Devil.

And please choose your words wisely:

"When speaking about well-known, revered and highly regarded past or present leaders, theologians, saints (living or deceased) of other Nicene Christian denominations, please show a measure of respect. These public religious figures are respected by the members who belong to those denominations. Please avoid using inflammatory words or phrases in reference to these public religious figures.

I read an full page newspaper article by those in Geneva drawing from historical opinions and those who lived under the tyrant hated him. And he knew it too.

Link to this rule.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Calvinism in the whole TULIP will need to be jettisoned before there is unity of love in the body of Christ. The being described under that theology is tyranny, both historically and today as well. That you quote a rule demanding respect for him by rule is exactly the mark of how the theology works in the hearts and minds of those who embrace it, I've noticed. Intolerance for other views is something I continually see in those who buy the calvinist teaching. NO other view will be tolerated. Under Calvin other views were punished by cruel death or banishment. This has not changed except the power to inflict such has. The fruit of the theology is enough to make the thinking man wonder.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

except in parables he opened not his mouth.

I guess you never heard of the sermon on the mount. Part of that is called the Beatitudes and the Beatitudes are not parables.

This is a good example of extracting a verse and insisting it describes everything. In fact, it is the best example of this sort of cherry picking I have ever read. I am going to remember this one...a poster who quoted that verse and so concludes that Jesus did not teach anything at all except in parables.....there go most of the gospel accounts....if one does this sort of thing to scriptures.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is interesting. You insist that death in Gen 2:17 means death and nothing else. But did God not say in the day that you eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree you will surely die. Did Adam and Eve actually, literally die the day they ate of the fruit?

The word for day in Gen 1 and for day in Gen 2 are not the same word.

The Hebrew word for day is yom and this word appears in Scriptures over 1400 times. And without exception this word, when written in the singular sense, means day. And that's it. Never anything else. Eons are indicated with the plural form: days, as in the days of such and such. The most popular counter argument is that the meaning of our word is fiercely restricted to 'day' for about a thousand times in the sequential Scriptures, but in the secluded chapter of Genesis 1 means something completely different! But honestly, if in Genesis 1 our word should have meant 'long time' it would have said 'long time'. There are words available in Hebrew that mean just that. None of which occur in
Genesis 1.
The word as used in Genesis 1 means day and day alone. There's no way around it, and every serious theory to make (systematic, not theological) sense out of Genesis 1 should first and foremost address the yom-problem.
http://www.abarim-publications.com/YomProblem.html#.Wja81kxFyM8


בַּיֹּום (ba-yom)
This is the word יום (yom) meaning “day” with the prefix ב (ba) meaning “in.” Combined these mean “in the day.”
Daytime (יומם yomam, Strong's #3119): This word is derived from the word yom [str:3117] meaning "day" which can refer to a twenty-four hour period or daytime. The word yomam always refers to the daylight hours, the time between sunup and sundown.

17 and~from~TREE (וּמֵעֵץ / u'mey'eyts) the~DISCERNMENT (הַדַּעַת / ha'da'at) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) and~DYSFUNCTIONAL (וָרָע / wa'ra) NOT (לֹא / lo) you(ms)~will~EAT(Verb) (תֹאכַל / to'khal) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) in~DAY (בְּיוֹם / bê'yom) you(ms)~>~EAT(Verb) (אֲכָלְךָ / a'khal'kha) FROM~him (מִמֶּנּוּ / mi'me'nu) >~DIE(Verb) (מוֹת / mot) you(ms)~will~DIE(Verb) (תָּמוּת / ta'mut)
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mtt/G2.html

Gen.2:17
"but from the tree of discernment of function and dysfunction you will not eat from him, given that in the day you eat from him you will surely die,"
There it is : {בְּיוֹם / bê'yom
Which is different from the {יוֹם / yom} used in the Genesis 1 account.

5 and~he~will~CALL.OUT(Verb) (וַיִּקְרָא / wai'yiq'ra) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) to~LIGHT (לָאוֹר / la'or) DAY (יוֹם / yom) and~to~DARKNESS (וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ / wê'la'hho'shekh) he~did~CALL.OUT(Verb) (קָרָא / qa'ra) NIGHT (לָיְלָה / lai'lah) and~he~will~EXIST(Verb) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) EVENING (עֶרֶב / e'rev) and~he~will~EXIST(Verb) (וַיְהִי / wai'hi) MORNING (בֹקֶר / vo'qer) DAY (יוֹם / yom) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad)

and Elohiym called out to the light, day, and to the darkness he called out, night, and evening existed and morning existed, a day unit,
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mtt/G1.html

 

[mmksparbud]

Where does this verse say the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgement then a second death?

Doesn't---just says death---which is exactly what happens---death---period. It is then God that dictated that forgiveness would come through the death of a lamb, then by the THE LAMB. The sentence was carried out. The wages of sin are death. God gives forgiveness to all who accept it. The sentence remains the same---death. It is God that has determined everyone will be resurrected to receive their day in court. At the judgement they get their final sentence face to face. The end is the same---death to those who reject His saving grace.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

When Jesus returns, the "dead in Christ" will rise first, those saved that are living at His coming are gathered together and all are brought to God. The living wicked are destroyed at His coming, and the wicked dead--"the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years are up." At the end of the 1000 years the wicked dead are resurrected and judged and Satan goes out to gather them up and march against the city--they are devoured by the lake of fire that descends from God out of heaven.

Then everything is made new---and there will be no more sin, death, tears, sorrow.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Matthew 16: 6. Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.


Sadducees leavening in the current age. Is, "Hell isn't forever. God isn't cruel. He'll let you off time served. Then you're annihilated. That's what youuuu wanted anyway, right?."

Pharisee leavening is, "One must perform this, this, and this to be redeemed. If you don't perform this, this, and this forever. Your redemption is void. So be afraid of your shadow forever."

God's grace and faithfulness are empty in both camps. His grace and faithfulness has never been in the possession of fallible man.

There are a few more camps as well. There is the "you are sealed and saved and going to Heaven no matter what you do to other men in pursuit of your own happiness" camp.

There is the "if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved camp" too.

 

[mmksparbud]

Sadducees leavening in the current age. Is, "Hell isn't forever. God isn't cruel. He'll let you off time served. Then you're annihilated. That's what youuuu wanted anyway, right?."

There are many camps aren't there? Such as God is a barbarian far worse than Hitler could ever have been, at least with him, the torture came to an end at death.
With God, it never ends Jews that were tortured and starved to death and gased, then get to face God and get tortured forever. That says a lot more about those that believe this than it does about God, His scriptures state there is an end to the suffering. He never once states that the wages of sin are burning and torment for ever---
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He did not lie to Adam and Eve or withhold the truth from them. The wages of sin are death.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Nobody can find the verse that states eternal life is given to the lost so they can burn forever.

 

[ClementofA]

1 Timothy 4:10
(10) For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 15:50
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​

This can't be right in these verses Paul says several times that certain people cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But in 1 Tim 4:10 Paul said that God is the Savior of all men. I guess Paul did not know what he was talking about in 1 Tim 4:10, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5 and 1 Cor 15:50 because obviously 1 Tim 4:10 means that God will save everyone no matter what.

Note the tenses of the verbs "Were" past tense. "Are, present tense.

How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?

Please show me any verse(s) which state that all those groups that Paul mentioned will be cleansed?

How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?

No they are not! What did the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians understand when Paul said all those groups would not inherit the kingdom of God? There is no record that they were ever told anything different.

How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?

And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Again you are evading answering the question with a simple yes or no:

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism?

Either you think it is a proof text against universalism or you don't.

If you don't think it refutes universalism, why keep posting it? What's the point if it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Ditto for the parallel passages you posted: Eph.5:5 & Gal.5:19-21 along with 1 Cor.6:9-11.

It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those
groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as
a "proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

Your argument fails because it is a logical fallacy, argument from silence, "something must/will happen because the Bible
doesn't say it will not.

Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong! My comment made no such argument. Neither did it state anything "must/will happen". Instead it was an argument against your position stating:

It does until you or some other uni can show me where Paul told the Christians in Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus that all those
groups Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God would inherit the kingdom after death.

Wrong. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-12). He didn't say any of the unrighteous will never become righteous. So 1 Cor.6:9-12 fails as a
"proof text" against universalism. Ditto for the other passages you quoted - Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:5.

" So please tell me where all those groups of sinners are going to spend eternity after they are made righteous, according to you, because they can't inherit the kingdom of God?.

Irrelevant to my point that your 1 Cor.6:9-11, etc, texts do not disprove universalism. I've shown you are wrong in implying they are "proof texts" against universalism.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

More literal honest versions say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

 

[ClementofA]

Aion cannot mean "eternity" and "finite age" at the same time. Aionios cannot mean "eternal" and "finite age long" at the same time. Could they possibly be being used "hyperbolically" in some instances the same way that "whole world"/all the world" are? I have presented my argument and evidence it has not been refuted.

You provided no evidence that aion or aionios are ever used in hyperbole. So your theory is built on nothing.

Yes I noted Rom 16:25. There is a figure of speech in Greek which is called "hyperbole" where exaggeration is used to emphasize a point.

What point what that be? Why have you - never - been able to cite a single source that agrees that aionios is - ever - used in hyperbole in the NT, Greek OT, Koine Greek, or any ancient Greek language? Let alone in Rom.16:25. BDAG's entries re aion & aionios never mention hyperbole. Instead Danker lists Rom.16:25 under the category of "pert. to a long period of time, long ago...long ages ago Ro 16 25" (p.33). Evidently in agreement with what Oldmantook posted.

I thought my discussion of kosmos would go right over your head. There is an entire earth but none of the scriptures I quoted which used the terms "all the earth" and "the whole world" could possibly refer to the entire world. That is known as "hyperbole." There are many examples of hyperbole in the Bible. "Aionios" is used in the NT to refer to things that are eternal and things that are not eternal. Refer to explanation in previous sentence.

Yet you've failed to provide any evidence or argument in support of your claim that aionios is used in hyperbole in Rom.16:25. Doing that anyone can make the Bible say anything they want it to. They can claim aionios is used in hyperbole in Mt.25:46.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

 

[ClementofA]

Neither Rom 1:20 nor 26:16 say anything about "God's method in relating to mankind." While "power" might be considered part of God' s nature, "Godhead, divinity, Godhood" is not.
And neither verse says anything about God "works out his will through the ages." The adjective "aionios," vs. 20, is singular not plural and it modifies God not the duration of the world or mankind.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

First of all, Rom.26:16 doesn't exist. There are only 16 chapters in Romans.

Secondly, the word aionios doesn't occur in Romans 1:20, let alone in the singular.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
ἀΐ́διος Godhead/Godhood refers to all that God is. αἰώνιος God, refers to God Himself. They are synonymous. To refute this one must provide credible evidence that this cannot be true and that another interpretation is the only correct one.

There is no need to refute your argument to show that it is flawed. Since you are claiming it is the truth all one has to do is show an alternative reasonable interpretation that opposes yours. Oldmantook already did that. Therefore your argument is flawed. IOW it isn't necessarily true. You failed to prove the truth of it. Oldmantook provided another reasonable interpretation which you could not refute. Therefore your "proof text" type of argument that aionios means eternal in Rom.16:26 failed. All you have is a theory & assumptions, not a proof.

Furthermore, even if (a big if, in this case) 2 words are synonymous (i.e. synonyms), it doesn't follow that they have identical meanings. Especially when they are used in completely different contexts 15 chapters apart from each other. Since words often have a range of meanings, even synonymous words may have completely different meanings in different contexts. So your argument is based on air, assumption/s & it is not logically foolproof.

 

[mmksparbud]

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It will be like the days of Noah---and it is pretty clear what happened then.
Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
All the saved went into the ark---God closed the door---the lost were outside---FOR 7 DAYS before it started to rain. God did not give anyone a 2nd chance. That was it. If they did not get into the boat before the flood---they couldn't get in after that door closed and God shut the door Himself.
So it will be at the end of time---the saved will be saved---the lost will be destroyed. No 2nd chance.

 

[narrowgateevangelist]

The High Priestly Prayer, rejects universalism as promoted by some.


John 17: 1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.