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Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    Before I begin I want to say that I am in no way one of those people who believe in annihilation to please my flesh or rely on my own understanding to make myself feel better. Sure you can use God's character as an argument, but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.

    I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.

    Here is the biblical evidence:

    Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

    Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."

    Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

    Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"

    Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

    Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

    1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"

    Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"
     
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  2. SarahsKnight

    SarahsKnight Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth. Supporter

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    It's easy. For fire-and-brimstone Christians who like talking about how God's "gonna get you", moreso than the simple good news of the Gospel, if people come to believe that Gehenna is actually any less harsh a punishment than eternal torture - any less harsh at all - then they lose control over their unbelieving counterparts (and fellow Christians who disagree with them on any peripheral Biblical subject) via fear.
     
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  3. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

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    I agree with your comments SarahKnight... I would also add that mans carnal need for vengeance and self righteous condemnation play a part.
     
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  4. Humble me Lord

    Humble me Lord Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2 Timothy 4:3-4.
    I don't think it's about control at all.
    IMO, This whole "God is all love all the time" is man making God into who they want Him to be. There is so much of the bible you have to throw out to obtain this line of thinking.
     
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  5. SarahsKnight

    SarahsKnight Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth. Supporter

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    Yes, except I don't see how literal destruction of sinners rather than eternal torment is making God out to be too loving or perverts His justice.

    .... Like I said, anything less than eternal torture of sinners and some Christians will get their panties in a bunch ("you're being too nice! That's a perversion of God's holiness if you don't think hell is eternal torment! Death is not a good enough punishment! You downplay the Gospel! Etc etc"). I've heard all the excuses for eternal torment.

    SDA's and other minority Christians who take the conditional immortality stance didn't just pull this out of thin air, you know. There's plenty of clear Biblical evidence for it; in fact, the verses that the OP laid out to back up his stance for annihilationism aren't even really all that great for proof. There's plenty more that are more clearly spelled out in favor of conditional immortality (I prefer to use that term instead of annihilationism because I think the latter misses the main point of the stance, that unbelievers will not have immortality and live forever in any way, form, or fashion, and that it is a gift only to believers, but for right now, God hath alone immortality just as 1 Timothy 6:16 says in plain English. I don't know how or when we got so far off track that we thought the Bible teaches without question that everyone has eternally ongoing souls one way or another).
     
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  6. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    This~~~> https://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html
     
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  12. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  13. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  14. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Short answer, Scripture is in support of an eternal Spiritual death in the lake of fire. This is the Second death.

    Long answer:
    My first and Last points are addressing common misconceptions and misunderstandings that people usually bring up when discussing the state of the wicked dead and the second death.
    HELL IS THE GRAVE(SHEOL)

    1. Hell and the lake of fire are two separate places. The misunderstanding of what/where hell actually is comes from Gehenna Originating in 1620's church Latin, post biblical Hebrew Gehinnom. It's meaning was used figuratively for a final resting place, the original word was switched to it by later churches.


    Strongs Concordance: 1067. Gehenna
    Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.
    Of Hebrew origin (gay' and Hinnom); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment -- hell.


    If we take the word back first to the original Greek it will bring us to Hades.

    Strongs concordance: Hades 86.
    The abode of Departed souls.
    The Grave, Hell


    Next we take it back to the original Hebrew word, Sheol.
    Strongs Concordance: Sheol 7585.
    Underworld. Place to which people descend at death.
    Grave, Hell, Pit


    Now there are multiple places in the bible that show the difference between the two, I am only going to show a few of the most Prominent. (Acts 2:27-31, 1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4, Psalm 16:10, Revelation 20:13-14)


    It's easy to see from these passages that the lake of fire and hell are two different places. For if they were they same how could Hell be cast into itself? Hell is the grave and is cast INTO the lake of fire after the heavens(First and second parts of Heaven) and earth are destroyed by fire at Christ's coming.


    THE DEAD ARE RAISED IN EITHER THE FIRST OR THE SECOND RESURRECTION

    2. The next point I would like to address is when the wicked will arise all the wicked that were already dead are resurrected AFTER the heavens and earth are destroyed by fire. This is the second resurrection for everyone who was alive at the time of the Lord's coming, and for the dead that had no part in the first resurrection.

    The soul(of the people that have died) must instead rest in the grave(Hell-Sheol) until either the first or the second resurrection. The righteous becoming part of the New heaven and New earth that is created.(Revelation 21:1-3)

    There are two resurrections, the first for those who were killed for Christ.
    Revelation 20:4-6

    And the second for the rest of the dead and those that were alive at the destruction of the heavens and the earth by fire at Christ's coming.
    1 Thess 4:13-17
    Acts 7:59-60
    1 Corinthians 15:6
    1 Corinthians 15:18-23
    Revelation 20:11-15

    THE WICKED ARE NOT COMPLETELY DESTROYED BY FIRE(ONLY THE BODY OF FLESH IS DESTROYED)

    3. The third point I would like to address is idea that the wicked are completely destroyed by fire, instead of being cast into the lake of fire and suffer everlasting torment.

    On the day of Judgement you either awake to everlasting life or everlasting damnation and torment.
    John 5:28-29
    1 Cor 15:51-55
    Revelation 14:9-11
    Revelation 20:12-15

    Revelation 20:10
    928 [e] basanisthēsontai- βασανισθήσονται- they will be tormented

    2250 [e] hēmeras- ἡμέρας- day

    2532 [e] kai- καὶ- and

    3571 [e] nyktos- νυκτὸς- night

    1519 [e] eis- εἰς- for

    3588 [e] tous τοὺς the

    165 [e] aiōnas- αἰῶνας- ages

    3588 [e] tōn- τῶν- of the

    165 [e] aiōnōn- αἰώνων- ages


    All of those who are cast into the lake of fire will be tormented forever and ever which is to say without end. Forever in the original greek it was used in means in perpetuity or without end. Using a Strong's concordance you will find this to be true.

    Greek 165
    αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ - aión
    age, course, eternal, forever
    From the same as aei; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future) -- age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare chronos.


    Form the greek word aei.
    Greek 104.-ἀεί-aei
    always, unceasingly, perpetually; on every occasion.
    always, ever.
    From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever,"by qualification regularly; by implication, earnestly; --always, ever.


    Even just looking at the context it is used in you can easily see its meaning is without end.
    This is further shown in these passages.
    2 Thess 1:5-10
    Mark 9:42-48
    Isaiah 66:22-24
    Matt 25:31-34,40-41,44-46
    Daniel 12:1-2
    Matt 8:11-12
    Matt 13:38-42

    Some try to say the fire is put out after a certain amount of time and the suffering will not be eternal they use these passages as proof for this argument.

    Jude 1:7
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire


    2 Thess 1:9
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Now I know what your thinking they say the same thing as far as eternity goes, but there is a difference between the two. Which is, simply put, aiónios has two definitions the one used when
    describing the fire in Jude 1:7 is as follows.


    Greek 166. aiónios
    (age-long, and therefore partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, (also used of past time, or past and future as well)

    The eternal fire (Greek 166) talked about in Jude is referring to an age, by extension a time already past, since the age in which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire has long since gone.

    2 Thess 1:9 is referring to the Future everlasting fire, (practically eternal, unending-- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began)). We know it is talking about this future fire since it says it take place after Christ destroys the Heavens and Earth with fire.


    2 Thess 1:8-9
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    The wicked are punished only AFTER the fire of vengeance brought by Christ destroys everything. (Matthew 24:29-31; Micha 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17, 26:21, 2:9-22; Zephaniah 1:18,2:2,3:8,1:2-3; Haggi 2:6-7; Malichi 4:1; Joel 2:10,31; Hosea 10:8; 1 Thess 1:7-9; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9).


    2 Thess 1:9 is the same eternal punishment away from the Lord referred to in Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10

    Revelation 14:11
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Revelation 20:10
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    The ages of the ages(Greek 165) is the same(meaning wise) as is used in the Old Testament Hebrew(Hebrew 5769 Olam, Hebrew 5703 ad).


    This sort of distinction is not unique to the new testament. The old testament (5769 Olam) could also mean a long time or an ancient time. Same goes for (5703 ad), but when these two words
    are used together it almost always means without end.

    Psalm 45:6 (5769) (5703)
    6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

    Hebrew 1:8 (165) (165)
    8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


    So likewise the ages(Greek 165) of the ages(Greek 165) spoken of in revelation is shown to mean without end.


    ETERNAL TORMENT AND DESTRUCTION

    4. The eternal destruction described in 2 Thess 1:9 is death, it is the second death. The second death is eternal destruction, torment, and separation from Yahweh. (Revelation 20:6,14-15) The death spoken of is the state of the wicked who are cast into the lake of fire. It is an eternal spiritual death, the perpetual torment of the wicked souls in the lake of fire.


    2288 thanatos
    death, physical or spiritual


    In the lake of fire there will be weeping and Gnashing of teeth, showing that those cast into the lake of Fire are well aware of the state which they are in. (Matt 13:42, Matt 8:12) The second death is not a complete and instant destruction but a prolonged form of punishment/destruction that will stretch into eternity.

    Destruction
    3639 olethros
    From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.


    The smoke that ascends, could not be from a complete consumption since they are ceaselessly being tormented, weeping, and Gnashing their teeth. Their destruction is everlasting, it comes
    from their pain, their torment, as they are being tortured day and night by the fire that is constantly consuming them but never putting out their existence or destroying them. So they never will achieve complete consumption as the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah did.

    Torment
    928. basanizó
    I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.
    pain, toil, torment
    From basanos; to torture -- pain, toil, torment, toss, vex

    And as I showed this Torment/destruction will be perpetual, that is to say without end.

    As I showed the fire that engulfed Sodom and Gomorrah was only to last for a time, an age, a certain duration that came to an end. The Smoke of their torment, that is the key part. With
    Sodom and Gomorrah it only lasted an age(Olam, age-long, and therefore partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, (also used of past time, or past and future as well)), a
    period of time and that time ended, but as I showed the fire that exists in the lake of fire will never be put out. ( Mark 9:44-48)
    And their torment will be day and night for eternity(Revelation 14:11, 20:10).


    THE LORD JUDGES EVERYONE AT THE RESURRECTION

    5. Every Man and Woman will be judged for everything they have done, said, and thought while they were alive on earth. At the second resurrection on the day of Judgment the wicked and the
    righteous will stand before the Lord and give account of everything they did while alive.
    (Revelation 20:12-15, 2 Timothy 4:1, Matt 12:36-37)

    RIGHTEOUS REMEMBER NOTHING WHEN THEY GO TO THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH
    6. The Lord Judges every man by their words and deeds on the day of Judgment. Now we know that the Righteous will not remember the former things, the things of this life after they are judged. (Isaiah 66:17, Revelation 21:4-5)

    Part 1
     
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  15. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    THE WICKED REMEMBER THE EVIL THEY HAVE DONE WHILE THEY ARE BURNING

    7. It says the dead have no more thoughts and no more part in anything under done under the sun. But when all the dead and the wicked are judged at the second resurrection the sun, the earth, and the universe are destroyed. All that remains is the third part of heaven where the lord resides and the lake of fire which is somewhere far outside the Lord's presence. So that does not apply.

    When we look at the second death you have to look at what comes before. Every soul cast into the lake of fire is Judged for everything they have ever said and done. Now it says in the New heavens and the new earth nothing of the Former world is remembered, but when we look at those in the lake of fire it says something different. (Luke 13:26-28, Matt 13:49-50)


    Its by their own words that they are condemned, their own deeds. They remember the evil that they had rejoiced in while on the earth, and that it was by their own hand that their fate was sealed, that is why they weep and Gnash their teeth(outside of the eternal torment by everlasting fire that is).

    The Lord is just he would not execute Judgment upon someone(especially a judgment such as this) who did not know their crime.


    THE FIRST DEATH IS THAT WHICH TAKES PLACE ON THIS EARTH

    8. When a man dies the first death he rests in the grave(Acts 2:27-31,1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4, Psalm 16:10,Acts 2:27) and his thoughts cease, and he has no more part in anything done under the sun. (Psalm 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Psalms 6:5)


    THOSE WHO DIE THE FIRST DEATH DO NOT CEASE TO EXIST
    9. When a man dies his soul/spirit lives on and sleeps in the grave(Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53, 1 Kings 2:10, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6, John 5:28-29, Job 7:21, Job 14:10, Daniel 12:2, 1
    Thessalonians 4:13).


    Strongs Concordance-5590. psuché
    soul, life, self
    from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul
    C.the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death


    This is the definition used in Matt 10:28, Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4, , Acts 2:27, 31. It is referring to an essence that is separate from the body and lives on after death(after the breath of life is given up) the soul is immortal. (1 Sam 28:11-20, 1 Peter 3:18-20, Revelation 6:9-11)
    The Spirit/soul of those dead are given up to be Judged at the Day of Judgment.


    THE SECOND DEATH IS SPIRITUAL


    10. The death that is an end to all thought and part in this world is the first death, that which takes place on earth(Psalm 146:4,Ecclesiastes 9:5-6). Their thoughts perish and they sleep until they are resurrected and judged(Revelation 20:12-15,2 Timothy 4:1, Matt 12:36-37). The eternal spiritual death is shown here. (Revelation 20:6,14-15)

    The death spoken of here is not a physical one since the body is destroyed at Christ's coming(Matthew 24:29-31; Micah 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17, 26:21, 2:9-22; Zephaniah 1:18,2:2,3:8,1:2-3; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:10,31; Hosea 10:8; 1 Thess 1:7-9; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9). So all that is left is the spirit/soul, since it's not physical there is only one option left by the definition of the word. Spiritual death.

    2288 thanatos
    death, physical or spiritual.


    EVERY SOUL THAT SINNETH MUST DIE(THE SECOND DEATH)

    11. Every soul that sinneth does die, the wages of sin is death. The death spoken of here is the second death. Which is the spiritual death. (Romans 6:23,Ezekiel 18:4,Revelation 20:6,14-15)


    WE ARE ALL TRANSFORMED IN TWINKLING OF AN EYE(FROM FLESH TO SPIRIT)

    12. As to the changing of the body. We are made like the Lord(spiritual), we are changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. Putting off this corruptible flesh and putting on incorruption. Casting off the former man(carnal,man of flesh) and putting on the quickening spirit the second man. Because flesh and blood can never inherit the kingdom of heaven, and not just the dead are changed but everyone is changed in an instant into the new spiritual form.

    The first adam was a living soul the last adam was a quickening spirit. Flesh and blood can never inherit the kingdom of heaven. We will be as the angels are in heaven. Not of Flesh but spiritual(celestial creatures). You have to remember Christ had to become flesh, he was not always a being of flesh but one of the spirit.


    When Christ died he became a quickening Spirit and ministered to the other spirits that were in Prison.1 Peter 3:18-20
    When Christ was risen he rose spiritually, that is why he told Mary not to touch him. John 20:17
    Then when he had completed his work spiritually he said the apostles could touch him. John 20:26-27
    Flesh and Blood cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven.1 Cor 15:50
    That is Christ became a quickening spirit. 1 Peter 3:18
    Christ's original form was a spirit, that is why he had to become flesh. John 1:1-14, 1 Timothy 3:16
    When Christ appeared unto Paul he appeared in the spirit not in the flesh. Acts 9:3-6, Acts 22:6-10, Acts 26:14-18
    When we are in heaven we will be just as the angels are. Mat 28:28-30, Mark 12:24-25
    When we are resurrected on the day of Judgment we will all be changed. 1 Cor 15:52
    Some ask how the dead are raised and in what body. 1 Cor 15:35
    Paul says they are fools to ask, he says that which we sow in the flesh must be quickened. 1 Cor 15:35
    We are sown in a natural body(corruption). 1 Cor 15:44,43
    And we are raised in a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:44
    That which comes first is the natural body of Flesh. 1 Cor 15:46-48
    That which comes second is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:46,44-45
    We are not raised in corruption. 1 Cor 15:43,50,53-54
    But in incorruption. 1 Cor 15:42-46,52-54
    There are bodies both terrestrial and celestial. 1 Cor 15:40
    We will be raised as celestial beings, quickening spirits. 1 Cor 15:42,44-46


    HERE ARE A FEW PASSAGES THAT ARE SOMETIMES MISINTERPRETED
    12.

    1. Some try to use Matt 10:28 saying that the soul and body are one and the same part and are therefore both destroyed in the lake of fire. The definition of soul in( Matt 10:28, Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4,Acts 2:27,31) is:
    5590. psuché
    soul, life, self
    from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul
    C.the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death


    The passages are referring to an essence that is separate from the body and lives on after death(after the breath of life is given up). The soul is separate from the body. It is the soul/spirit that is resurrected(either first or second resurrection) at the end to go either to everlasting torment( the second death) or everlasting life.


    2. Some try to use Isaiah 34 saying that the lake of fire must here on earth, saying that it says earth is the place the wicked are completely destroyed(as in there is no torment). On first Glance it seems to be the same as Revelation 20/14:11 but when we get to the next chapter we see to what it is referring. In chapter 35 we see that this takes place on earth even before the lord returns(Isaiah 35:7-9, Isaiah 34:9-17). It is the path(Isaiah 35:8-9)(if not just a part of the path) that the righteous take to the valley of the mountain(Zech 14:5, Isaiah 66:18-20, Ez 11:16-20)(the Lord's kingdom on earth before his coming). Just because Isaiah came before(year prophecy was given), it and revelation are still set during the same period(where prophecy and the end are concerned) so they must always be in agreement. So since Isaiah says this comes before the return of Christ and even before/during the time a path is made for the Lord's people to go to the mountain we can see that it is not the lake of fire the wicked are cast into after the destruction of the heavens and the earth.


    This even comes before the thousand years are completed and Satan is loosed
    Revelation 20:7-9

    Then AFTER the camp of the saints(Holy mountain of the Lord, valley of the Mountain) is fully encompassed it is destroyed by fire that comes down from God/Heaven and devours them.
    Revelation 20:9

    Then/at this time does the Lord return and the entirety of the Heavens and the earth are destroyed. (Revelation 20:11,2 Peter 3:7,10, 12)


    Only after the Lord returns and destroys everything(heavens and earth) are the dead given up to be judged and sent either to everlasting life(Heaven) or to everlasting death(lake of fire). (Revelation 20:12-15)


    So since what takes place in (Isaiah 34:9-11) is on earth, and is even before/during the beginning of the time the Lord starts gathering in the righteous to his holy mountain(Isaiah 66:18-20, Ezekiel 11:16-20), it is easy to see Isaiah 34 and 35 are taking place on earth and do not represent the eternal destruction described in Revelation 20/Revelation 14:11. (Isaiah 34:9-10,13, Isaiah 35:7-10)


    It’s a desolation that only the wicked cannot pass through, a habitation of dragons. To the wicked the land is impassable, uninhabitable, and desolate. To the Righteous this land will be a highway that only the redeemed may walk upon, to them it will be a land of springs of water, a land of grass and reeds and rushes.

    The smoke that rises up is a eternal smoke, the word used here is (5769. olam-always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,) from other passages from the bible and from the next chapter it shows it only burns/smokes for a space of time.


    3. Lastly people will try to use the thief on the cross. There are three ways people try to use the thief on the cross.

    1. Christ and the thief went to heaven when they died.
    Now when we look at the verse,
    Luke 23:43
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    This makes sense when taken at face value not looking at the rest of scripture. When we do though we see the error in this line of thinking. When Christ died he did not go to heaven he went to sheol/the grave.

    1 Peter 3:18-19
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Ephesians 4:9-10
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


    We know that he didn’t ascend until mid or late morning because he appeared to Mary after she left his grave and still had yet to ascend.
    John 20:16-17
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    After speaking with her he ascended and then reappeared to the disciples and told them to touch him.(John 20:19-28). So it is obvious this line of thinking cannot be the case.


    2 and 3 The other two ways people try to use are basically the same with only a minor difference. One believes that when he said this he was referring to the day of judgement(1st way) and that there is a inspired comma. The second believes that he was referring not to judgment day and the resurrection but to sunday when he finally ascended, and they may or may not have a special comma. The answer to both of these is the same.

    In the original Greek there was no punctuation so it would read:
    43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise


    So we can clearly see that it is friday that he is referring to, and where did he go on friday. The answer is sheol/the grave. And the thief he spoke to went there the same day as him. Paradise is the Place thought by the ancient Jews to be the place where the righteous souls went when they died.

    Paradise- Paradeisos 3857
    3. The part of hell which was thought to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection.

    Now we know that even today the dead still sleep(Acts 2:27-31, 1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4, Psalm 16:10, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6,1 Thessalonians 4:13) and none have risen except for Christ. No man is resurrected except they be a part of the first or second resurrection.( 1 Thess 4:13-17, Acts 7:59-60, 1 Corinthians 15:6, 1 Corinthians 15:18-23,Revelation 20:11-15,Revelation 20:4-6)


    If you disagree I ask that you provide strong doctrine using the word of God alone to prove me wrong, using the full sword of God not just a couple verses here or there.

    May the Peace, Light, and Word of the Lord God Yahshua the Christ guide you in all things.
     
  16. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    Stephen said: If you disagree I ask that you provide strong doctrine using the word of God alone to prove me wrong, using the full sword of God not just a couple verses here or there.

    Here is the book you requested.

    Believe what the Jewish Apostles Taught, Not What the Greek Philosophers Taught
    • Why Tradition about the fate of the lost, (as torment forever) is unbiblical and not hermeneutically correct.

    • Why Conditional Immortality is absolutely true and all unsaved souls will one day be "destroyed."

    • Why there is no "immortal soul" doctrine in the Bible, for the lost, at all.

    http://JewishNotGreek.com


    A CHALLENGE TO THOSE WHO DISAGREE

    We are so persuaded of our position, and so confident in the Scriptural evidence presented on this site, that we honestly do not believe that anyone who shares our faith in the final authority of Scripture will be able to cling to endless torment after reading this entire site and the links.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  17. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter Staff on LOA

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    ADMIN HAT ON


    Moved from General Theology to Controversial Christian Theology as it’s off topic for that forum.


    ADMIN HAT OFF
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The various views have already been given, but the answer is simple. The Bible gives support to the view stated in the original post here, but it also, later, gives the other idea. That is why there are two contrasting beliefs among Christians, although it is usually said by Bible experts that the earlier, Jewish one, was replaced by the conventional Christian view in the New Testament. People who argue for one or the other, generally don't mention the verses that suggest the opposite view.
     
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  19. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    Without obsessing over the condition of other people's undergarments I'd like to say that the idea of eternal torture strikes me as equally probable as eternal reward. This is the same God who invented the food chain. He blesses and curses to an equal degree. For every birth there is a death. Every good thing comes undone through its own eventual destruction in this world. The net effect is zero.

    Whether you can find the proof texts for it, or whether, as you seem to be doing, you can find the deep dark motivation that causes people to believe in eternal torture, it still remains that God is capable and demonstrates a tendency do go equally in both directions, to bless and to harm. If eternity in Heaven, which goes beyond the nature of this life, is possible, then eternal damnation is equally possible, and even probable.

    Your position holds that there is only Heaven and here. That makes this the only Hell that anyone will ever know. On one end we have positive infinity and on the other end we have the finite. But the finite is not the other logical end. Negative infinity is. If this life is the finite, then we have no reason to believe that those who are dead should remain in the finite any more than they remained in this life.
     
  20. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Brother,

    I have addressed the points made in the Link you provided already. If you wish to put forth something new on this forum I would happy to discuss with you. Outside of that brother I have already addressed most/all the Glaring errors supported in your link. If I missed a few here or there I would be happy to answer those points here on this forum.

    So again brother prove all things by the word of God alone, and consider what I have provided studying it by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
     
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