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Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Young's Literal Translation uses gehenna and age/ages........

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=gehenna&t=YLT#s=s_primary_0_1
    "gehenna"
    occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the YLT.

    Only 1 time outside of Gospels......

    James 3:6
    and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    ** I'm just getting here, so I apologize if this information has already been posted.
    The words that have been translated as "hell" in the Bible are:
    Sheol (Hebrew)
    Hades (Greek)
    Tartarus (Greek)
    Gehenna (Greek)
    Gehenna accounts for 12 of the 13 Hell mentions, and most importantly, it comprises 100% of Jesus’ alleged references to “Hell”.
    "Hell" is a modern word (it comes from an Old English word, "hel" which means to cover or hide).
    So what is Gehenna?
    Its a valley. A literal valley. A physical, geographic location. The Valley of Hinom. In fact, here’s what this valley (and apparently Hell) looks like today.
    (See attached thumbnail)
    Actually none of the English words in our English translations appear in the Hebrew and Greek testaments. Many words in older versions no longer mean what they meant in the past. So the original meaning of Hell is not relevant. Some older versions also have German and Latin words.
    .....There is a historical precedent for translating Sheol and Ge hinnom as hell.
    According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    ….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


    Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
    (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)



    Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    We can disagree, however, the article is demonstrably wrong.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When did you change your view from endless torments to annihilation?

    If Sodom is already annihilated, why does the Bible say all will be resurrected?

    https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <ClemA>What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.
    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."
    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)<end>
    Guess some folks don't know the difference between "Jewish myths and commandments of men" and the beliefs and practices of the Jews, based on their understanding of their Hebrew scriptures, before and during the time of Jesus.
    .....You also seem to be ignoring the fact that, although Jesus criticized or corrected the Jewish leaders on their beliefs several times, He never specifically told the Jews that their belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment of the wicked was wrong? Some of Jesus' teaching supported the then existing belief in hell. Nothing that Jesus taught supported UR.
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Prostitutes are included in your list. See "unrighteous" & "fornicators" (2X), etc. Therefore the unrighteous - shall - get into the kingdom of God. And they shall do so - before - "the chief priests and the elders of the people", which implies "the chief priests and the elders" (Mt.21:23) shall also enter. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. As your correspondent (Pneuma3) said:


    "But as it just so happens scriptures do in fact show these type of individuals will enter the kingdom.
    Matt 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They *said, "The first." Jesus *said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
    Now tell me DA how the tax collectors and prostitutes get into the kingdom?"


    Clearly you've never read Paul, the universalist . See 1 Cor.15:22-28; Eph.2:9-11, etc.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Nowhere? Have you never read the context? He says it right there.

    It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

    1 Cor 6:9-11

    "Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

    "And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

    As a commentator says:

    "Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

    "They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

    So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


    Where did anyone say that?

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-false-accusations.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But He did:


    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html


    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html


    And concerning the blind Pharisees, who believed in endless punishments:

    12Then the disciples having approached, said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees, having heard this saying, were offended?”

    13 And answering He said, “Every plant that My Heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.14 Leave them! They are blind guides of the blind.d And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”



     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  10. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said that Abraham saw his day and rejoiced.
     
  11. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    The Scribes and Pharisees taught that there is one true God. Shall we beware of that teaching too or do you pick and choose which teachings of the scribes etc you accept and which you decide to reject (because you personally don’t like them?)

    And it’s been proven that the teaching about Hell was known before the middle ages. You need to drop that falsehood that it started then. Find sumpin else.
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you? I reject - ALL - human teachings that oppose the Sacred Scriptures.

    So? Who has - ever - said otherwise? Didn't my post say "hell" (endless punishment) was believed by the blind Pharisees? Yes.

    Do you know what a strawman argument is? Or false accusations:

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-false-accusations.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  13. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Doesn’t look like it. Looks you reject teaching you dont like and throw in that the scribes etc taught as if that makes it automatically untrue. But still some thing they taught you accept.
    Then you ought to stop mentioning the account of hell are myths from the middle ages. They don’t come from that age.
    Yes to both and I do not need a link to define it.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No He did not! Perhaps you did not understand my request. Here it is again. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that, although Jesus criticized or corrected the Jewish leaders on their beliefs several times, He never specifically told the Jews that their belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment of the wicked was wrong?
    What you copy/paste from one of your pet UR websites about what some anonymous person thinks Jesus should have said in any given situation is NOT the specific evidence I requested..

    Jesus also said about the Pharisees.
    Matthew 23:2-3
    (2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
    (3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
    I appears that you only read verses which, when quoted out-of-context, appear to support your argument. But the verse you quoted does not address my request. Where did Jesus Himself specifically tell the Jews that their belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment of the wicked was wrong?

     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are you aware of what the Bible calls vain imaginations & false accusations. Can you mind read anonymous internet posters? Or do you just have extremely poor reading comprehension skills?

    Your reading comprehension skills are poor. You read something i wrote & then twisted it in your imagination into something quite different.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus never said the Pharisees belief in endless punishments was correct.



    Those verses refer to doing what they tell you, not believing their false teachings. So they are irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

    Where did Jesus ever affirm such a horrific viewpoint? He taught "love your enemies". Not fry them alive forever.

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

    1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

    2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

    3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

    "Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

    "Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3V...5DMMQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=ateleuteton&f=false

    5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

    6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

    7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Regarding v.11...

    "The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9."

    https://www.studylight.org/commentary/revelation/22-11.html

    Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

    Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    "They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    There were those who saw and understood. Anne saw the Messiah as a babe and knew. A man named Simon too. It’s simply not true that no one understood.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Thank you very much but I do not need explanations or instruction in English or Greek. I have been speaking, reading and writing English for some decades before you were born. I have studied Greek at the graduate level which also required graduate level knowledge in English. So I do not need biased distorted explanations about Greek from someone who could not parse or conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it. The verse says what it says<period> end of discussion.
    ....You cherry picked one out of several scholars at study light. "A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9." Similar mode of expression does not mean everything about Rev. is exactly like Ecc 11:9. Let us see what other scholars said on the same page.
    John Gill
    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still,.... These words are not to be considered as ironical expressions, such as in Ecclesiastes 11:9 much less as an allowance to do injustice and commit filthy actions; nor even as deterring persons from these things, by tacitly suggesting, that should they continue unjust and filthy, they would be severely punished; nor as an anticipation of an objection that might be made against the publication of this book, and the sayings of it, taken from the ill use that some men might make of it, who might be provoked to injure and persecute the saints more and more, or indulge a filthy conversation; but as a prophecy of what would be at the close of time, at the second coming of Christ. The imperative is put for the future, as is usual in the Hebrew language, in which it is said, let such and such things be, when the sense is, that they shall be; see Ezekiel 3:27 Zechariah 11:9 and so the meaning of this expression is, he that is now found without a righteousness, and full of all unrighteousness, and acts unrighteously, will continue so; there will be no change made in him, no regeneration, renovation, repentance, or reformation; he will remain the same wicked man he ever was; or he that hurts, or does injury to his fellow creatures, will still do mischief; at least he will have the same inclination, though not the opportunity and power, but will attempt it, of which there will be an instance in the wicked dead, when raised; see Revelation 20:8.
    Both the two, that the wicked should continue to be wicked, and the righteous to be righteous, is alike agreeable to the will of God. If the second is no mere permission, but a manifestation of will on the part of God, so must it be also in respect to the first. If they will have it so, let it be so; if it is right in their view, so is it also in God's. He will take care that they do not escape from him.
    E.M Zerr Commentary
    After this there will never be any change either for better or worse with anyone. The unjust and filthy will always be Song of Solomon , and the righteous and holy likewise will remain so. That is why there will never be any sin committed in Heaven by angel or man after the judgment. Neither will there be any chance for reformation on the part of the creatures in the lake of fire.
    Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
    Eternal punishment is not an arbitrary law, a necessary result from the very nature of things, as the fruit from the bud. No worse punishment can God lay on ungodly men than to give them up to themselves. The solemn lesson is, Be converted new in your short time (Revelation 22:10, end), before "I come" (Revelation 22:7; Revelation 22:12), else you must remain unconverted forever.
    <ClemA>Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler<end>
    This specious copy/paste argument is as irrelevant now as it was the first dozen times you posted it. The passage says nothing about modes of punishment. That is just a smoke screen trying to divert attention away for what the passage actually says.. The comparison is "death without mercy" and "much sorer punishment." It does not say "much sorer punishment" than any of the modes of capital punishment in Israel. You can post this nonsense as many times as you want to but it does not change what the scripture actually says. "much sorer punishment" than "death without mercy." Every mode of capital punishment which God allowed Israel was "death with mercy."
    <ClemA>
    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily
    ...<end>
    Meaningless prattle. You have no way of knowing what the writer of Hebrews would have/could have/might have believed or said in any set of circumstances that you can conceive.
    .....The rest of the same old irrelevant copy/paste from tents-r-us, beyond hell etc omitted. If you cannot say it in your own words it is not worth reading.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If that is true it appears you've forgotten what you learned. I've corrected your Greek a number of times. As to your proficiency in Greek, remember this:

    Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

    "This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."


    And yet you continue the discussion with:


    Yet amazingly you immediately proceed to do the same, i.e. cherry pick :


    While we're on the subject, here's a few cross references which show similarities to Rev.22:11:

    1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
    Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
    Mt.15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
    Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.
    Rev.22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one hearing, let him say, “Come!” And the one thirsting let him come; the one desiring, let him take freely the water of life.

    Is there the slightest hint of endless punishment in any of those verses or Rev.22:11? No.

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151

    And, now, for another commentary on Revelation 22:11:

    "Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?” Maybe I am stretching here, I fear."

    "I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well."

    https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/filthy-still/402/8

    And for yet another interpretation:

    https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/filthy-still/402/3

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    "In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

    That recalls some other passages about kings:

    Psalm 72:11
    Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

    Psalm 102:15
    So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

    Psalm 138:4
    All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

    Isaiah 60
    2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

    Isaiah 62:2
    The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

    Revelation 21:24
    By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
     
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