Why an eternal hell? (2)

[dollarsbill]

It's not exactly spelled out across the NT (much less the OT) that the fate of most of us is eternal torment. There's a much stronger case for everybody being saved eventually (I'm not arguing that, just pointing out that there are MANY verses that seem to say that plainly). Again, why would God be so incredibly vague and slow to warn people against the worst fate imaginable?

I'm not sure Universalism is allowed in this forum.

 

[dollarsbill]

There's the belief, or hope at least, that God will ultimately judge us all righteously, and maybe even mercifully.

Was the Flood merciful? Was burning Sodom alive merciful?

 

[dollarsbill]

I don't believe in a fire and brimstone hell. I believe hell is just being dead and the grave.

A good place to start is the NT.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[dollarsbill]

If you knew everything, would you be justified in tormenting someone without end?

Certainly!

 

[dollarsbill]

How does being holy define the right to torture someone forever?

Do you know someone who can tell God that He cannot? Please tell us who that would be.

 

[holo]

like I said for every sin if we got 10 years that would be hundreds of thousands of years anyway. What difference does an eternity make, it's already three thousand lifetimes, what would an infinite amount make a difference?

Seriously? What difference does an infinite amount make compared to a finite amount?

And ten years of torment for one single sin?

 

[holo]

Was the Flood merciful? Was burning Sodom alive merciful?

Like I said before, the flood and the burning of Sodom were finite happenings. There are several accounts of the people's sins being punished by God, especially in the OT. Absolutely NONE of them even suggests eternal torment though.

Also, we shall all be judged once and for all, and it's reasonable to believe the ultimate judgment will be a fair one. That's our faith, or at least our hope. Maybe we will all be saved at the end of time. I don't know, but there are many passages that can be taken that way. Certainly more than can be taken to mean that God, the same God who DIED for every sin ever committed, is going to torment most of the humans He created for eternity. He loves them, and isn't willing that any of us should perish, yet He somehow wants to torture us endlessly. Endlessly.

"I'm not sure universalism is allowed in this forum" isn't an answer to what I'm saying.

 

[dollarsbill]

Seriously? What difference does an infinite amount make compared to a finite amount?

And ten years of torment for one single sin?

It will be very interesting to see you argue this with God when you stand before Him.

 

[holo]

A good place to start is the NT.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

There are better verses to support your view than the fire being eternal. You'd have to provide some that say the soul is eternal to begin with. As far as I know there's tellingly enough not a single verse that says that, it can only be inferred from a few verses if you interpret them in a certain way. You'd think something like that would be clearly spelled out in both the OT and the NT.

 

[dollarsbill]

Like I said before, the flood and the burning of Sodom were finite happenings. There are several accounts of the people's sins being punished by God, especially in the OT. Absolutely NONE of them even suggests eternal torment though.

Also, we shall all be judged once and for all, and it's reasonable to believe the ultimate judgment will be a fair one. That's our faith, or at least our hope. Maybe we will all be saved at the end of time. I don't know, but there are many passages that can be taken that way. Certainly more than can be taken to mean that God, the same God who DIED for every sin ever committed, is going to torment most of the humans He created for eternity. He loves them, and isn't willing that any of us should perish, yet He somehow wants to torture us endlessly. Endlessly.

God burns humans alive, drowns humans, and He will also burn humans forever. Pretty simple.

 

[holo]

Certainly!

So it's not about what people actually do, it's about whether or not the one who is judging is all-knowing or not?

By that rationale, the more you know, the more justified you will be to torment someone.

 

[dollarsbill]

There are better verses to support your view than the fire being eternal. You'd have to provide some that say the soul is eternal to begin with. As far as I know there's tellingly enough not a single verse that says that, it can only be inferred from a few verses if you interpret them in a certain way. You'd think something like that would be clearly spelled out in both the OT and the NT.

Actually you need to provide proof that eternal doesn't mean eternal. You cannot. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending.

 

[holo]

Only in this life.

The point is how God views rebellion against Him (sin).

Deuteronomy 28:53 (NASB)
53 "Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you.

Which is pretty far from eternal torment.

 

[dollarsbill]

So it's not about what people actually do, it's about whether or not the one who is judging is all-knowing or not?

By that rationale, the more you know, the more justified you will be to torment someone.

You are confused.

 

[holo]

It will be very interesting to see you argue this with God when you stand before Him.

Yes, I would argue it, because God Himself is the one who told ME to judge righteously, and has told me to be like Him. If He wants to torture us all eternally, how could He possibly accuse me for torturing anyone for an hour, even if they deserved it?

What about you? Do YOU think it doesn't matter if you suffer for ten thousand years or for eternity? Do YOU think ten years of torture is fair for, say, stealing a car? Do you think an eternity in hell is fair for doing that?

 

[holo]

You are confused.

Good argument...

 

[holo]

Actually you need to provide proof that eternal doesn't mean eternal. You cannot. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending.

I'm not saying the fire isn't eternal, I'm saying human life isn't eternal by default. One good indication of that would be the fact that the bible repeatedly talks about life and death, and the fact that death means absence of life. The bible says those who are saved will be given eternal life, which doesn't make sense unless "life" means something completely different than "life" in those particular verses. There's also the fact that God DENIED sinners eternal life way back in Genesis.

Eternal punishment doesn't mean eternal life in hell. Eternal death means eternal death, not eternal life.

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, I would argue it, because God Himself is the one who told ME to judge righteously, and has told me to be like Him. If He wants to torture us all eternally, how could He possibly accuse me for torturing anyone for an hour, even if they deserved it?

I look forward to seeing you argue with God. Who do you think will win?

What about you? Do YOU think it doesn't matter if you suffer for ten thousand years or for eternity? Do YOU think ten years of torture is fair for, say, stealing a car? Do you think an eternity in hell is fair for doing that?

It's fair for those who refuse to repent.

 

[dollarsbill]

I'm not saying the fire isn't eternal, I'm saying human life isn't eternal by default. One good indication of that would be the fact that the bible repeatedly talks about life and death, and the fact that death means absence of life. The bible says those who are saved will be given eternal life, which doesn't make sense unless "life" means something completely different than "life" in those particular verses. There's also the fact that God DENIED sinners eternal life way back in Genesis.

Eternal punishment doesn't mean eternal life in hell. Eternal death means eternal death, not eternal life.

Take note:

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[holo]

I look forward to seeing you argue with God. Who do you think will win?

I look forward to you answering my arguments instead of saying you look forward to see me argue with God. By the way, do you in fact look forward to such a thing?

It's fair for those who refuse to repent.

Why? How?

If you refused to repent for stealing my car, would I be justified in gouging your eyes out?