Why an eternal hell? (2)

[holo]

2 Peter 3:9 for one shows God is not willing that any should perish. Do you think passages in the new testament contradict God's teaching in the old testament?

I expect the OT and the NT to harmonize, that is, I expect the part of the bible that deals with God and Israel (OT + the gospels in the NT), and the part that deals with the Gentiles, to agree with each other, one verse explaining or elaborating on the other. I would certainly expect for the fate of most people who ever lived to be a little clearer to find than having to wait for something written in a few verses about six thousand years from the first creation of man.

Yes, God is not willing that any should perish, yet most of us will, apparently.

I never ever actually said that. There are statements I find as this that do not deal with what I do say.

I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you personally said it, it's the consequence of what most christians seem to believe.

This disregards the things I have already said about it, and it actually argues against faith in Christ with what he did. You also show doubt of what he can do.

I have doubt that God can't do more than most christians claim He can. I have doubt God can't (or doesn't want to) do more than Adam did. I have doubt that Adam could make us all sinners by birth, but God only a few of us righteous if we happen to hear the gospel and make an active, conscious stand on it, and that if we don't, it's torment forever. I have doubt that's somehow "fair" to anybody.

Yes, we without revelation do not really understand what death is, and many as yourself fall on worldly understandings of it. The Bible, revelation from Yahweh our God, provides some understanding for those who will see it. And that much indeed is not complicated. If eternal life does mean it is eternal, as it does, the same word being used applies in the same way to those dying in rebellion to God with his grace for torment in eternity.

But then those who are lost also have eternal life.

Eternal life: being alive forever.
Eternal death: being dead forever.

Do the terms life and death mean completely different things when dealing with the physical realm as opposed to the spiritual?

This is your judgment from your understanding on which you insist. This judges God in what he would do, which we are even told in scriptures not to do in any case. No one here to my knowledge is actually saying what God will do will be unrighteous, but there is this reinterpretation by internal standards, rather than letting God be God.

I'm not judging God in what He does, I'm judging people's claims about what God is doing.

There is no understanding, even by any, how there will be torment.

Exactly how the torment takes place is irrelevant, isn't it? Suffering is suffering, whether it's whipping or burning.

The context, Revelation 14:9-11, says:
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

The passage says it as it is. The wrath of God comes without it being limited, with his judgment on them, in their rebellion, shown with the mark, and they are tormented, "with fire and brimstone", which continues forever and ever, that they have no rest day or night. It would be fair according to sins which are rebellion, so it would apply to any others in rebellion that way, that is never coming to redemption according to his terms. We cannot know whatever supernatural things there may be with that, any more than streets that are pure gold, like transparent glass.

But what I'm wondering, will people in Hell be away from God or in the presence of God? Because these verses say the opposite of each other, therefore I'm not convinced they're speaking about the same thing.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Forme once true always true so even a second in hell participates in eternity.

 

[Armistead14]

I expect the OT and the NT to harmonize, that is, I expect the part of the bible that deals with God and Israel (OT + the gospels in the NT), and the part that deals with the Gentiles, to agree with each other, one verse explaining or elaborating on the other. I would certainly expect for the fate of most people who ever lived to be a little clearer to find than having to wait for something written in a few verses about six thousand years from the first creation of man.

Yes, God is not willing that any should perish, yet most of us will, apparently.

I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you personally said it, it's the consequence of what most christians seem to believe.

I have doubt that God can't do more than most christians claim He can. I have doubt God can't (or doesn't want to) do more than Adam did. I have doubt that Adam could make us all sinners by birth, but God only a few of us righteous if we happen to hear the gospel and make an active, conscious stand on it, and that if we don't, it's torment forever. I have doubt that's somehow "fair" to anybody.

But then those who are lost also have eternal life.

Eternal life: being alive forever.
Eternal death: being dead forever.

Do the terms life and death mean completely different things when dealing with the physical realm as opposed to the spiritual?

I'm not judging God in what He does, I'm judging people's claims about what God is doing.

Exactly how the torment takes place is irrelevant, isn't it? Suffering is suffering, whether it's whipping or burning.

But what I'm wondering, will people in Hell be away from God or in the presence of God? Because these verses say the opposite of each other, therefore I'm not convinced they're speaking about the same thing.

God is willing that no man should perish, but in the point of hell, God cannot accomplish his will, the majority will be lost.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK, you say God is righteous "because He says so." So you don't judge God by His actions. Christ crucified, for example, or Jesus healing people, could just as easily have been an evil thing, we're unable to know. We just have to trust God when He says those things are good.

But with humans it's different. With humans we're perfectly able to discern that Hitler, for example, did evil things...

True, but there are many other passages that can be taken to explain or modify those things. For instance the resurrection and righteous judgment of all, including those who drowned in the flood. There's the belief, or hope at least, that God will ultimately judge us all righteously, and maybe even mercifully.

But we're not so hopelessly unable to discern good from evil that we can get away with believing eternal torment can possibly be a good or righteous thing.

God knows everything, so it is not evil for God to toment eternally ....the real question is....

does God hold every sin accountable?

If so, an eternity of punishment suits it well.

 

[FredVB]

I expect the OT and the NT to harmonize, that is, I expect the part of the bible that deals with God and Israel (OT + the gospels in the NT), and the part that deals with the Gentiles, to agree with each other, one verse explaining or elaborating on the other. I would certainly expect for the fate of most people who ever lived to be a little clearer to find than having to wait for something written in a few verses about six thousand years from the first creation of man.

Yes, God is not willing that any should perish, yet most of us will, apparently.

I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you personally said it, it's the consequence of what most christians seem to believe.

I have doubt that God can't do more than most christians claim He can. I have doubt God can't (or doesn't want to) do more than Adam did. I have doubt that Adam could make us all sinners by birth, but God only a few of us righteous if we happen to hear the gospel and make an active, conscious stand on it, and that if we don't, it's torment forever. I have doubt that's somehow "fair" to anybody.

But then those who are lost also have eternal life.

Eternal life: being alive foresqver.
Eternal death: being dead forever.

Do the termecfs life and death mean completely different things when dealing with the physical realm as opposed to the spiritual?

I'm not judging God in what He does, I'm judging people's claims about what God is doing.

Exactly how the torment takes place is irrelevant, isn't it? Suffering is suffering, whether it's whipping or burning.

But what I'm wondering, will people in Hell be away from God or in the presence of God? Because these verses say the opposite of each other, therefore I'm not convinced they're speaking about the same thing.

God showed grace through the OT that can be seen by one reading it. Death also is something more than physical death, which is all that is understood by any not believing in the distinct soul, that persists according to teachings in the Bible, in the NT and also shown to be seen in the old in places. God can do anything, but all of it righteous he cannot do what is not that. With all of us in his image we are making our own choices.

 

[windy35]

I don't believe in a fire and brimstone hell. I believe hell is just being dead and the grave.

 

[holo]

God knows everything, so it is not evil for God to toment eternally ....the real question is....

does God hold every sin accountable?

If so, an eternity of punishment suits it well.

If you knew everything, would you be justified in tormenting someone without end?

What's the biblical basis for saying that not only will someone still be alive even after the second death, but that they will be alive and keeping on sining? Because eternal sinning is the only thing that could warrant eternal torment as punishment.

 

[createdtoworship]

If you knew everything, would you be justified in tormenting someone without end?

What's the biblical basis for saying that not only will someone still be alive even after the second death, but that they will be alive and keeping on sining? Because eternal sinning is the only thing that could warrant eternal torment as punishment.

first of all the second death is not Hell, and secondly Yes God is justified in Judging forever if He holds every sin accountable. All our prison sentences or for 1-6 crimes normally, what if we punished someone for ALL their sins?

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't believe in a fire and brimstone hell. I believe hell is just being dead and the grave.

Verses for this?

 

[holo]

first of all the second death is not Hell, and secondly Yes God is justified in Judging forever if He holds every sin accountable. All our prison sentences or for 1-6 crimes normally, what if we punished someone for ALL their sins?

What is the second death? Still not death?

Yes, God will judge them all for everything. Being righteous, I suppose they will not all get the exact same sentence.

Suppose we punished a man for every single wrongdoing he ever committed. Would eternal suffering be fair? What about yourself, have you sinned infinitely much?

 

[createdtoworship]

What is the second death? Still not death?

Yes, God will judge them all for everything. Being righteous, I suppose they will not all get the exact same sentence.

Suppose we punished a man for every single wrongdoing he ever committed. Would eternal suffering be fair? What about yourself, have you sinned infinitely much?

lets see if you only sinned twice a day,

thats 26,480 sins in my life time already.

If God is Holy and gave me say, ten years for each sin

that would already be 264,000 plus years in Hell

How many years in prison would you get if you committed 264,480 felonies?

 

[seeingeyes]

How many years in prison would you get if you committed 264,480 felonies?

Much, much, much less than an eternity.

 

[holo]

lets see if you only sinned twice a day,

thats 26,480 sins in my life time already.

If God is Holy and gave me say, ten years for each sin

that would already be 264,000 plus years in Hell

How many years in prison would you get if you committed 264,480 felonies?

First of all,
ten years in hell for, say, having a selfish thought?

Secondly,
even if you should somehow deserve 432509862345623045 years in hell, that's still nothing at all compared to eternity.

 

[createdtoworship]

First of all,
ten years in hell for, say, having a selfish thought?

Secondly,
even if you should somehow deserve 432509862345623045 years in hell, that's still nothing at all compared to eternity.

just showing you that an eternity is not that long for hundreds of thousands of personal and deliberate sinning against a holy God.

 

[Armistead14]

just showing you that an eternity is not that long for hundreds of thousands of personal and deliberate sinning against a holy God.

That's a silly comparison, first time I've heard "eternity is not that long" from someone that believes eternity is non-ending time. If a person is tortured for a trillion years for every little sin, it still wouldn't be a second in eternity. Would you ground your child for life for spilling a glass of milk?

How does being holy define the right to torture someone forever?

 

[FredVB]

Note: this post is responding to both holo and to those in this latest discussion including gradyll and Armistead.

To holo, I backtracked for the context of this particular subject.


Originally Posted by Fred V B

That is the problem seeing contrary things said with not having the right understanding with definition. Destruction along with perishing is a corruption from what any are intended to be from God's creation, it is everlasting, cut off from the presence of God where the redeemed are forever in bliss, there will be torment with no rest day or night.
​

What is your take on Rev 14:10?

The context, Revelation 14:9-11, says:
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

The passage says it as it is. The wrath of God comes without it being limited, with his judgment on them, in their rebellion, shown with the mark, and they are tormented, "with fire and brimstone", which continues forever and ever, that they have no rest day or night. It would be fair according to sins which are rebellion, so it would apply to any others in rebellion that way, that is never coming to redemption according to his terms. We cannot know whatever supernatural things there may be with that, any more than streets that are pure gold, like transparent glass.

But what I'm wondering, will people in Hell be away from God or in the presence of God? Because these verses say the opposite of each other, therefore I'm not convinced they're speaking about the same thing.

God showed grace through the OT that can be seen by one reading it. Death also is something more than physical death, which is all that is understood by any not believing in the distinct soul, that persists according to teachings in the Bible, in the NT and also shown to be seen in the old in places. God can do anything, but all of it righteous he cannot do what is not that. With all of us in his image we are making our own choices.

Holo, I realize that I did not in the end answer your last post for this subject. I did not find the verses you mention but have a memory that you did post some verses that you seemed to contrast. If the question about verses that seem to you to refer to different things is about whether something in judgment winds up being in God's presence or not, my answer would be that the condemned after judgment are still in Yahweh God's presence because he is everywhere always, there is no place that he is not. But they will never be in the special place where there will be fellowship with him, which only the redeemed come to, the grace which was rejected ultimately comes to an end, just as sin must come to an end and judgment be carried out.


To the rest about this last subject:

That's a silly comparison, first time I've heard "eternity is not that long" from someone that believes eternity is non-ending time. If a person is tortured for a trillion years for every little sin, it still wouldn't be a second in eternity. Would you ground your child for life for spilling a glass of milk?
How does being holy define the right to torture someone forever?

Torture, torture, torture. I spoke of this several times before. I do not see torture to which there is reference. Being in misery with anguish not being in the bliss that had been offered does not necessarily mean someone is torturing them. The condemned never pay for their sin to be clean of it, as only Christ could do that, they are left to be in their misery apart from any fellowship to enjoy, with God or any others, and that will be through eternity. With fairness that I know comes from God who is holy and righteous with his judgment, different persons had different levels of sinfulness and they will suffer their misery in different amounts. We do not know how it will happen as it involves the supernatural, just as we are told in approximations to suggest what eternity for the redeemed will be like, there is imagery to show we should dread the eternity of the condemned, there is fire spoken of for them but they will be in darkness, so it involves what is not familiar to us in nature.

Sins, which must be judged, are deliberate, whether it would be admitted by us or not. It does not include accidental things and childish mishaps. Those things, coming from human fallenness, will be done away finally.

 

[createdtoworship]

That's a silly comparison, first time I've heard "eternity is not that long" from someone that believes eternity is non-ending time. If a person is tortured for a trillion years for every little sin, it still wouldn't be a second in eternity. Would you ground your child for life for spilling a glass of milk?

How does being holy define the right to torture someone forever?

like I said for every sin if we got 10 years that would be hundreds of thousands of years anyway. What difference does an eternity make, it's already three thousand lifetimes, what would an infinite amount make a difference?

 

[seeingeyes]

like I said for every sin if we got 10 years that would be hundreds of thousands of years anyway. What difference does an eternity make, it's already three thousand lifetimes, what would an infinite amount make a difference?

It would make an infinite difference. Perhaps you are not understanding how long 'forever' is?

Forever minus one million years is still forever. Forever minus 600 quadrillion years is still forever. So 'hundreds of thousands of years' is not even a drop in the bucket of eternity.

 

[createdtoworship]

It would make an infinite difference. Perhaps you are not understanding how long 'forever' is?

Forever minus one million years is still forever. Forever minus 600 quadrillion years is still forever. So 'hundreds of thousands of years' is not even a drop in the bucket of eternity.

actually everlasting is outside of time, no time at all would have passed. So time wise one year is longer than everlasting Hell.

 

[dollarsbill]

The flood and the fireworks at Sodom both had an end, though. They ended in death. A punishment that ends in death in not the same as a punishment that never ends with death.

Only in this life.

Deut 28 is an interesting point, because we see how that plays out later in the prophets. The Israelites did indeed disobey God and they did indeed receive the curse of Deut 28, but they were always promised restoration at the end of their trials.

The point is how God views rebellion against Him (sin).

Deuteronomy 28:53 (NASB)
53 "Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you.