Why an eternal hell? (2)

[dollarsbill]

Do you see more than two bible verses that seemingly say that hell means eternal suffering?

Do you see more that two verses that say eternal life is indeed eternal?

 

[dollarsbill]

"So it's not about what people actually do, it's about whether or not the one who is judging is all-knowing or not?

Are you not judging the omniscient One?

By that rationale, the more you know, the more justified you will be to torment someone."

NO!!! Only God is omniscient.

To which you replied, "you are confused."

Yes. Jesus has already answered for us. He IS the answer, the way and the life. He IS your righteousness.

And He is well able to cast sinners into Hell forever. He answers to NOBODY.

To be more accurate, salvation is for everyone, it's already a done deal. And then we (possibly) get to make a choice to "accept" or "reject" it.

And the majority reject this salvation.

So the more you know about a person, the more justified you are in torturing him? The more power you have, the more justified you are in torturing him? The more righteous you are, the more justified you are in torturing him?

Omniscience and omnipotence = ABSOLUTE POWER.

God, who according to the bible, IS righteous and IS love, puts to a much higher standard than Himself? He wants me to forgive you, but He Himself has no intention of doing so, unless you happen to "accept" the gospel that you may or may not get to hear in your life, since He does love you and all...

But in essence, what you are saying here is that we should be more forgiving and merciful than God.

NO! God doesn't have to forgive or have mercy. We do.

 

[holo]

it means death that never matures for the period of eternity.

In other words, death means life.

 

[holo]

two that can be proven, the rest fall into place after you accept eternal torment.

I highly doubt that the most important (what matters most for most of us) doctrine in history really is to be found in the intepretation of TWO verses which in turn determines how every other earlier verse is to be interpreted. Just the notion that eternal torment for most of humanity should be kept a secret until Rev. was written...

 

[holo]

Do you see more that two verses that say eternal life is indeed eternal?

I don't need many verses to explain that eternal life means eternal life. Just like you don't need many to point out that eternal death means eternal death and not something completely different. Surely the writers of the bible would've used slightly different words than "death" if they in fact meant life.

 

[holo]

Are you not judging the omniscient One?

No, I'm arguing against your portrayal of Him.

NO!!! Only God is omniscient.

I still don't see how omnipotence somehow justifies eternal torture.

And He is well able to cast sinners into Hell forever. He answers to NOBODY.

True. But He can not lie. He can not be righteous AND infinitely evil, just like He can't create a rock too heavy for Him to lift.

And the majority reject this salvation.

If salvation comes by hearing the gospel in your lifetime and then making a decision about it, I must disgree - the majority of people don't even get the chance to reject it, even in the West where the gospel tends to be watered down with all sorts of rules and traditions and weird portrayals of God, not to mention those parts of the world that have never seen a bible.

Omniscience and omnipotence = ABSOLUTE POWER.

Yes. And?

NO! God doesn't have to forgive or have mercy. We do.

OK, He doesn't HAVE to forgive or have mercy. But He does have to judge righteously, or else He is a liar. He has to mete out fair judgment.

The thing is, I fail to see how God can wish to punish anyone forever.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, I'm arguing against your portrayal of Him.

I still don't see how omnipotence somehow justifies eternal torture.

True. But He can not lie. He can not be righteous AND infinitely evil, just like He can't create a rock too heavy for Him to lift.

If salvation comes by hearing the gospel in your lifetime and then making a decision about it, I must disgree - the majority of people don't even get the chance to reject it, even in the West where the gospel tends to be watered down with all sorts of rules and traditions and weird portrayals of God, not to mention those parts of the world that have never seen a bible.

Yes. And?



OK, He doesn't HAVE to forgive or have mercy. But He does have to judge righteously, or else He is a liar. He has to mete out fair judgment.

The thing is, I fail to see how God can wish to punish anyone forever.

so holo, how much punishment does 60,000 transgressions deserve?

just death?

what about 100,000?

or 200,000

again only death?

 

[holo]

so holo, how much punishment does 60,000 transgressions deserve?

just death?

what about 100,000?

or 200,000

again only death?

I don't know, as you say only God is omniscient. But I do know that nobody deserves endless torment. It's pointless to point out that 60000 sins deserves more punishment than 20. It's not like 23049872134690254 years is closer to an eternity than 32987 years.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't know, as you say only God is omniscient. But I do know that nobody deserves endless torment. It's pointless to point out that 60000 sins deserves more punishment than 20. It's not like 23049872134690254 years is closer to an eternity than 32987 years.

in the traditional views of eternity. Yes the larger number would be closer. But in the more accurate view of eternity (which is beyond time and space).....eternity is not a long time, it is simply a state beyond time so your argument is moot. It doesn't matter how many sins it takes to deserve an eternity of Hell, because eternity is not simply a "long time" but a place outside of time.

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, the beast and the false prophet.

The false prophet being a human! Are we humans?

 

[dollarsbill]

So it's not about what people actually do, it's about whether or not the one who is judging is all-knowing or not?

Total contradiction.

By that rationale, the more you know, the more justified you will be to torment someone.

I am not the one who will do the tormenting. Please stop this nonsense.

 

[holo]

in the traditional views of eternity. Yes the larger number would be closer. But in the more accurate view of eternity (which is beyond time and space).....eternity is not a long time, it is simply a state beyond time so your argument is moot. It doesn't matter how many sins it takes to deserve an eternity of Hell, because eternity is not simply a "long time" but a place outside of time.

Then I misunderstood what you meant by asking how many years of torment a sin deserves. I think you argued earlier that since your sin would deserve thousands of years anyway, eternity wouldn't make much difference.

In any case, it won't matter for those who end up there, it's still torment without end. And the only way to deserve endless torture would be to sin endlessly. Yes, God killed thousands of people for idol worship and so forth, but judgment isn't until the final day, that's when they will all will be judged fairly. There's no possible way to reconcile love with endless torment, how can it be God's will to create people just in order to torture them endlessly?

 

[holo]

The false prophet being a human! Are we humans?

Yes we are. That doesn't mean we shall all share the same fate though.

 

[holo]

Total contradiction.

What do you mean?

I am not the one who will do the tormenting. Please stop this nonsense.

Doesn't matter who will do the tormenting. The question is how it follows that just because you're omniscient, you're justified in torturing anybody forever.

 

[holo]

I don't see how you can base such an important doctrine on your interpretation of TWO verses, especially when that doctrine is incompatible with the concept of God's omnipotence and righteous judgment. If you hadn't been taught earlier that hell meant endless torment, there's no possible way you would've concluded that it is, based on scripture alone. Because if you're going to interpret the bible that way you might as well conclude that we must name all the animals.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't see how you can base such an important doctrine on your interpretation of TWO verses, especially when that doctrine is incompatible with the concept of God's omnipotence and righteous judgment. If you hadn't been taught earlier that hell meant endless torment, there's no possible way you would've concluded that it is, based on scripture alone. Because if you're going to interpret the bible that way you might as well conclude that we must name all the animals.

If you hadn't been falsly taught that aion means temporary you would have never come to the conclusion that dozens of ET verses mean temporary death.

 

[createdtoworship]

Then I misunderstood what you meant by asking how many years of torment a sin deserves. I think you argued earlier that since your sin would deserve thousands of years anyway, eternity wouldn't make much difference.

In any case, it won't matter for those who end up there, it's still torment without end. And the only way to deserve endless torture would be to sin endlessly. Yes, God killed thousands of people for idol worship and so forth, but judgment isn't until the final day, that's when they will all will be judged fairly. There's no possible way to reconcile love with endless torment, how can it be God's will to create people just in order to torture them endlessly?

it's not torment without end, that implies time. It's torment in an eternal state, not a non ending state. As there is no time to end.

 

[holo]

If you hadn't been falsly taught that aion means temporary you would have never come to the conclusion that dozens of ET verses mean temporary death.

1. Aion doesn't falsely mean temporary. It means age/ages and, depending on the context, may mean eternity or an age.

2. There's no such thing as temporary death. I believe in eternal death, that's the whole point.

 

[holo]

it's not torment without end, that implies time. It's torment in an eternal state, not a non ending state. As there is no time to end.

Nevertheless, would you experience it any differently? Wouldn't it be endless torture to you?

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes we are. That doesn't mean we shall all share the same fate though.

Of course not. God's people will not. The rest will.