Why an eternal hell? (2)

[jasonsloss]

why a eternal hell???

how would God be just if there wasn't an eternal hell...

 

[ssammoh]

If you read 1 John 3, people who rebel against God and live in sin are no different from their father, the devil.

I read 1 John 3 and I didn't see anything saying that those who live in sin are the same as the devil.

If the devil will be punished for eternity, why do you think other people in hell won't?

It's not just the devil. It's also the beast and the false prophet. They will burn forever as well.
Btw the lake of fire isn't the same thing as Hell. Just saying.
1. It says very clearly that the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be "tormented day and night forever and ever". But it doesn't say that about other people.
2. Unbelievers will be tormented in the presence of the Lord, but they will also be shut out of His presence.
3. Unbelievers will become ashes.
4. Unbeliever's future will be cut off.
5. Unbelievers will vanish into smoke.

The bible says they will be eternally damned over and over again for their rebellion.

Where did it say that?

Nonexistence? What? How can a person be punished for their sins forever and not exist forever?

The punishment lasts forever. You never come back from it, and you can never undo it.

Eternity is forever. Your analogy doesn't work since time is involved.

My point was that just because a punishment lasts a certain amount of time (or eternity), doesn't mean that the person will be punished over and over again.

Jesus Christ didn't die for nothing.
He didn't sweat blood for nothing.

I never said He did.

Do you believe that eternal life isn't really eternal either?

Why do you assume that one is and one isn't?

Do you believe that God is lying when he says the righteous will inherit eternal life while the wicked receive eternal punishment?

Eternal punishment doesn't mean you get punished over and over. It means the punishment lasts forever.
Same goes for eternal life.
Eternal life doesn't mean God gives us life over and over. It means that the life He gives us lasts forever.

One is based on scripture, the other is based on emotion.

Not in my case.

 

[blankCrossfire]

I read 1 John 3 and I didn't see anything saying that those who live in sin are the same as the devil.

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Most of the chapter discusses this.

Btw the lake of fire isn't the same thing as Hell. Just saying.

Sorry about that confusion.

1. It says very clearly that the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be "tormented day and night forever and ever". But it doesn't say that about other people.

Revelations 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

2. Unbelievers will be tormented in the presence of the Lord, but they will also be shut out of His presence.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

3. Unbelievers will become ashes.
4. Unbeliever's future will be cut off.
5. Unbelievers will vanish into smoke.

Do you have bible verses for any of these points? Am interested.

Where did it say that?

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I'd also encourage you to read Luke 16 (The Rich Man and Lazarus).

 

[ssammoh]

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

"of the devil" doesn't mean they are the same as the devil. Believers are children "of God", but they are nowhere near the same as God.

Revelations 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

That doesn't say they are eternally tormented, just that they are thrown into the lake of fire. I think people will suffer in the fire, just not eternally.
Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, and then cease to exist. They can't be tormented because they are places. The devil can't be killed because he is immortal. But humans aren't places OR immortal beings. So they can be tormented AND annihilated in the lake of fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Yes that's true, they will be away from the Lord. I don't see why that can't mean they will cease to exist. Especially since it clearly says in another verse that they will be tormented in the presence of the Lord. That makes it sound like they will be tormented in the presence of God, before being shut out of His presence (by ceasing to exist).

Do you have bible verses for any of these points? Am interested.

Unbelievers will become ashes.
Malachi 4:3
"Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty."

Unbeliever's future will be cut off.
Psalm 37:38
"But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off."

Unbelievers will vanish into smoke.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish: The LORD's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish--vanish like smoke.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

You don't need to be tortured forever to have everlasting contempt.
Contempt: The feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.
This isn't about how the person themselves feels, but rather what people think of them. For example, pretty much everyone who knows about Hitler has contempt for him.

I'd also encourage you to read Luke 16 (The Rich Man and Lazarus)

I've read it multiple times. A lot of conditionalists have said it isn't evidence for eternal torment "because it is a parable". I think Luke 16 is evidence that the wicked will be tormented after death, but it doesn't say anywhere that the torment is going to be eternal.

 

[blankCrossfire]

"of the devil" doesn't mean they are the same as the devil. Believers are children "of God", but they are nowhere near the same as God.

1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

John 8:43-44
Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I think you're looking too much into "the same".
No one is saying that a follower of Christ is Jesus Christ.
Likewise, no one who rebels against God is the Devil, but is of the devil.
This doesn't excuse the fact that they are just as wicked as their father for who have they learned their ways from? (John 8:44)

That doesn't say they are eternally tormented, just that they are thrown into the lake of fire. I think people will suffer in the fire, just not eternally.
Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, and then cease to exist. They can't be tormented because they are places. The devil can't be killed because he is immortal. But humans aren't places OR immortal beings. So they can be tormented AND annihilated in the lake of fire.

Death and Hades include the people that were swallowed up in there. It is after they are swallowed up by the sea that Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. It never says anywhere that anyone or anything will 'cease to exist'. Also, the devil is a created being just like you and I. The human body may not be immortal but do you conclude that the soul isn't either?

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes that's true, they will be away from the Lord. I don't see why that can't mean they will cease to exist. Especially since it clearly says in another verse that they will be tormented in the presence of the Lord. That makes it sound like they will be tormented in the presence of God, before being shut out of His presence (by ceasing to exist).

Which verse are you referring to?

Unbelievers will become ashes.
Malachi 4:3
"Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty."

Is this verse referring to Christ's return, or people in the lake of fire?
Will believers be in hell as they 'trample down the wicked'?

Unbeliever's future will be cut off.
Psalm 37:38
"But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off."

I agree

Ecclesiastes 9:10
9 Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Unbelievers will vanish into smoke.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish: The LORD's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish--vanish like smoke.

All throughout Psalm 37 are comparisons of those who abide in the Lord and those who don't. Time and time again it says that the wicked will be cut off. Cut off from what exactly?

You don't need to be tortured forever to have everlasting contempt.

That's not what Daniel 12:2 says.

I've read it multiple times. A lot of conditionalists have said it isn't evidence for eternal torment "because it is a parable". I think Luke 16 is evidence that the wicked will be tormented after death, but it doesn't say anywhere that the torment is going to be eternal.

Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

I'm beginning to think you've been referring to one's body this whole time. If not, please correct me.

What happens to one's soul? It seems that you're only referring to the body and disregarding the soul completely. Do you believe that the soul is not immortal?

If not, then what?

 

[ssammoh]

Likewise, no one who rebels against God is the Devil, but is of the devil.
This doesn't excuse the fact that they are just as wicked as their father for who have they learned their ways from? (John 8:44)

Where does it say they are as wicked as their father?

It never says anywhere that anyone or anything will 'cease to exist'.

Why would death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire if they are not going to stop existing?

The human body may not be immortal but do you conclude that the soul isn't either?

Why would the soul be immortal?

(some of) Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

(some of) 1 Timothy 6:16
who alone is immortal <--- referring to God, of course

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

How is this verse relevant to what we are talking about?

Which verse are you referring to?

Here you go.

(some of) Revelation 14:10
tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

(some of) 2 Thessalonians 1:9
shut out from the presence of the Lord

How else can they be tormented in the presence of the Lord AND shut out of His presence?

Is this verse referring to Christ's return,

Yup.

Will believers be in hell as they 'trample down the wicked'?

Nope.

Time and time again it says that the wicked will be cut off. Cut off from what exactly?

I'm not sure actually.

That's not what Daniel 12:2 says.

So?

Do you believe that the soul is not immortal?

Yup.

 

[ssammoh]

But the idea is that God is supposed to save all of mankind, if he doesn't save everyone then he will have failed. So even Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot will have to be saved eventually. Life doesn't end at the grave so there's plenty of time for them to see the error of their ways.

But what about the parts where it talks about eternal punishment?

 

[blankCrossfire]

Where does it say they are as wicked as their father?

1 John 3

Why would death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire if they are not going to stop existing?

The Son of God came to destroy the works of the Devil.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: &#8220;Death is swallowed up in victory.&#8221; 55 &#8220;O Death, where is your sting?O Hades, where is your victory?&#8221;
- - -
Revelations 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why would the soul be immortal?

2 Corinthians 4:16
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

How can you continue to deny everlasting torment and accept everlasting life when the same words are used to describe both?

People without Christ are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.
Does that mean they have no soul? Certainly not.

(some of) Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Yes.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- - -
Revelations 20:14
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(some of) 1 Timothy 6:16
who alone is immortal <--- referring to God, of course

In your previous post you also said...

The devil can't be killed because he is immortal.

Which one is it?
Do you believe that the devil is a god too?

How is this verse relevant to what we are talking about?

If the soul is cast into hell, how can it cease to exist if it is immortal?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

(some of) Revelation 14:10
tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Is this happening in the lake of fire? (The second death)
Or is this happening upon Christ's return?

Nope.

Then we can come to the conclusion that this isn't discussing what is going on in the lake of fire right?

I'm not sure actually.

Everlasting life.

So?

The problem is that you're not taking into account what scripture says and instead trying to find ways around it when it's right in front of you. There are plenty of other verses that support his claims as well. The bible interprets itself.

 

[ssammoh]

Well Jesus doesn't say anything about it being eternal. Some other people do but I think that's kind of their opinion. I don't think they would really know how long who spends where in the next life. When you see mention of eternal desruction and burning in the Old Testament bear in mind that the Jews didn't really believe in an afterlife at that point. The fires refer to their burial pits where the body is destroyed. What likely happened is that some of the New Testament authors got a hold of that material and read something else into it. The pit in the earth where your charred dead corpse resides eternally becomes an eternal place of suffering for damned souls.

I don't believe in eternal torment. Well, except for the unholy trinity (Satan, the beast, the false prophet). As for typical sinners, I would say they experience temporary suffering (just as much as they deserve, no more and no less) before annihilation.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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