Who worships the same God?

[Archivist]

We don't worship the same God; I hope that is clear enough.

That is the question. Perhaps the problem is that "same God" became the focus of attention to the exclusion of "worship."

If your contention is that all prayers that are directed to any supernatural being or force are de facto prayers to whichever entity is the real one (which I would reject as a concept), it still cannot be said that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God.

Wrong. To the extent (and only to that extent) that we worship the God of Abraham, we worship the same God. And no, I’ve never said that our understanding of God is the same.

 

[Albion]

I disagree, but test yourself this way--

Do Mormons worship the same God or believe in the same Christ...as do orthodox Christians? I think, as I believe most Christians do, that if anyone gives his allegiance to some construct that is not our God...but then slaps the same name on that entity, it really is not the same God, despite the name and the claim.

 

[DamianWarS]

But it doesn’t work like that in NT thinking, which is why I tried to give a fuller answer. A simpler version would be: they can’t worship God without the Holy Spirit, but they can be religious and worship in accordance with their own religion - but the object of worship is not God - not in a true sense - for you can’t actively deny and oppose the worship of Christ and positively worship the Father at the same time.

Paul refers to the unknown god with the Athenians to point to the true God. His language suggests they are worshiping the correct referent but just do so blindly.

 

[DamianWarS]

I disagree, but test yourself this way--

Do Mormons worship the same God or believe in the same Christ...as do orthodox Christians? I think, as I believe most Christians do, that if anyone gives his allegiance to some construct that is not our God...but then slaps the same name on that entity, it really is not the same God, despite the name and the claim.

your argument presupposes not the same God. What if allegiance is given to a construct that is agreeable as God?

 

[DamianWarS]

Wrong. To the extent (and only to that extent) that we worship the God of Abraham, we worship the same God. And no, I’ve never said that our understanding of God is the same.

then the question is, with Abrahamic religions, is Abraham the same Abraham? It might be easier to answer this one, if so, can it be scalable to the same God.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Paul refers to the unknown god with the Athenians to point to the true God. His language suggests they are worshiping the correct referent but just do so blindly.

That's not quite what it means - not in a positive sense. Paul is distressed because of their idolatry and he's criticising those who are outwardly religious and supposedly so wise in that they don't even know what they worship - for both their religion and object of worship are wrong. Paul knows that there is only one true God, and he begins to communicate this idea with the Gospel; the death and resurrection of Christ (as opposed to an abstract debate on the existence of a God).

In other words, besides the true worship of God through Christ, there is only idolatry. To worship an unknown God is not to worship God with insufficient knowledge, but to worship an idol, which is contrary to worshipping God.

 

[DamianWarS]

That's not quite what it means - not in a positive sense. Paul is distressed because of their idolatry and he's criticising those who are outwardly religious and supposedly so wise in that they don't even know what they worship - for both their religion and object of worship are wrong. Paul knows that there is only one true God, and he begins to communicate this idea with the Gospel; the death and resurrection of Christ (as opposed to an abstract debate on the existence of a God).

In other words, besides the true worship of God through Christ, there is only idolatry. To worship an unknown God is not to worship God with insufficient knowledge, but to worship an idol, which is contrary to worshipping God.

how do you think the Athenians understood what Paul said?

v25 "I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you."

what is Paul proclaiming? he is proclaiming "What therefore you worship as unknown"

hmmm...

Eugene Peterson puts it this way:
I found one inscribed, to the god nobody knows. I’m here to introduce you to this God so you can worship intelligently, know who you’re dealing with.

So later, a fellow Athenian asks what was that guy talking about at the Areopagus? would they say he claims to know the unknown god or would they say he speaks of a new god? What did Paul claim or was Paul just using gimmicks to lure them in? v28 gives us more clues as Paul is not quoting scripture he is quoting Greek philosophers from Epimenides and Aratus.

take for example the former, in his poem Cretica it is translated as follows:
They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
For in you we live and move and have our being.

v28a is a direct quote of the last line and the greek is identical. This poem is directed to Zeus but Paul repurposes it so it may be used to point to God and he uses the unknown god to point to him. He does this to show that God is already among them uses the unknown god as the referent.

Can I do the same with Jews and Muslims today pointing to the identity of God they understand as the referent of God and using it to proclaim truth? if a lie at which point do we become hagglers of the gospel? Or should we say to them that they worship a false god? which is better?

 

[Daniel9v9]

how do you think the Athenians understood what Paul said?

v25 "I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you."

what is Paul proclaiming? he is proclaiming "What therefore you worship as unknown"

hmmm...

Eugene Peterson puts it this way:
I found one inscribed, to the god nobody knows. I’m here to introduce you to this God so you can worship intelligently, know who you’re dealing with.

So later, a fellow Athenian asks what was that guy talking about at the Areopagus? would they say he claims to know the unknown god or would they say he speaks of a new god? What did Paul claim or was Paul just using gimmicks to lure them in? v28 gives us more clues as Paul is not quoting scripture he is quoting Greek philosophers from Epimenides and Aratus.

take for example the former, in his poem Cretica it is translated as follows:
They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
For in you we live and move and have our being.

v28a is a direct quote of the last line and the greek is identical. This poem is directed to Zeus but Paul repurposes it so it may be used to point to God and he uses the unknown god to point to him. He does this to show that God is already among them uses the unknown god as the referent.

Can I do the same with Jews and Muslims today pointing to the identity of God they understand as the referent of God and using it to proclaim truth? if a lie at which point do we become hagglers of the gospel? Or should we say to them that they worship a false god? which is better?

Again, that’s not how the NT understands worshipping God. There are not different degrees of worshipping God. It’s not like Christians worship God 100%, Jews 50% and Greeks 10%. To be religious and to acknowledge the existence of God does not by necessity correspond to true worship of the only true God. The NT is very clear on this: the worship of God is binary; it’s either through Christ or not at all. viz. idolatry.

If we look at the Pharisees for example, even though they believed in a god and were deeply religious, we can find references such as “hypocrites”, “brood of vipers”, “synagogue of satan” etc. It’s not that the Pharisees were super villainous in comparison to everyone else, although it may be easy for us to view them as such. Most were probably very devoted and outwardly pious. Yet, they were rejected, because they rejected Christ. The NT does not recognise them as true worshippers of God and neither are Jews and Muslims in our day when they explicitly deny Christ. This is not a politically correct statement, but what is politically correct is shallow on this point, for all three religions make very exclusive claims and are fundamentally exclusive of each other. This is also true from the other side inasmuch as Islam and Judaism both consider Christianity as idolatry; as something evil. Likewise, the NT condemns all other religions as evil, because they are not true - not in Christ.

Now, there’s nothing wrong in appealing to people’s philosophy or religion as means to proclaim the Gospel. This is what Paul does. To the Jews, he argues like a Jew. To the Greek, he argues like a Greek. But this does not mean he recognises their worship as true or even partly true, for it is only true through Christ.

 

[Archivist]

then the question is, with Abrahamic religions, is Abraham the same Abraham? It might be easier to answer this one, if so, can it be scalable to the same God.

My understanding is that the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael. If so, it would be the same Abraham.

 

[DamianWarS]

Again, that’s not how the NT understands worshipping God. There are not different degrees of worshipping God. It’s not like Christians worship God 100%, Jews 50% and Greeks 10%. To be religious and to acknowledge the existence of God does not by necessity correspond to true worship of the only true God. The NT is very clear on this: the worship of God is binary; it’s either through Christ or not at all. viz. idolatry.

If we look at the Pharisees for example, even though they believed in a god and were deeply religious, we can find references such as “hypocrites”, “brood of vipers”, “synagogue of satan” etc. It’s not that the Pharisees were super villainous in comparison to everyone else, although it may be easy for us to view them as such. Most were probably very devoted and outwardly pious. Yet, they were rejected, because they rejected Christ. The NT does not recognise them as true worshippers of God and neither are Jews and Muslims in our day when they explicitly deny Christ. This is not a politically correct statement, but what is politically correct is shallow on this point, for all three religions make very exclusive claims and are fundamentally exclusive of each other. This is also true from the other side inasmuch as Islam and Judaism both consider Christianity as idolatry; as something evil. Likewise, the NT condemns all other religions as evil, because they are not true - not in Christ.

Now, there’s nothing wrong in appealing to people’s philosophy or religion as means to proclaim the Gospel. This is what Paul does. To the Jews, he argues like a Jew. To the Greek, he argues like a Greek. But this does not mean he recognises their worship as true or even partly true, for it is only true through Christ.

I'm not talking about true worship or varying degrees of true worship or whatever point you're trying to make. I'm talking about worship, which is adoration and reverence reserved for the divine, directed to the same referent as God regardless if this is known or unknown. Paul does not commend the worship of the Athenians on some level of true worship or that they got parts of it right, he looks at the referent of worship which is the unknown god and tells them he knows who this God is.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I'm not talking about true worship or varying degrees of true worship or whatever point you're trying to make. I'm talking about worship, which is adoration and reverence reserved for the divine, directed to the same referent as God regardless if this is known or unknown. Paul does not commend the worship of the Athenians on some level of true worship or that they got parts of it right, he looks at the referent of worship which is the unknown god and tells them he knows who this God is.

And the NT is saying, if the object of worship isn't Christ, it's not worship of God; it's idolatry.

 

[DamianWarS]

And the NT is saying, if the object of worship isn't Christ, it's not worship of God; it's idolatry.

I think you mean through Christ. We may worship the Father, we may worship the HS, what makes this worship acceptable is the sanctification through Christ, and without Christ, there is no sanctification so without Christ worship is meaningless. But I'm not talking about correct worship I'm talking about the referent of worship, you seem to not be able to separate these concepts.

 

[trophy33]

What is the difference between these three options?

1. Jews, Muslims and Christians worship the same God
2. all Abrahamic religions worship the same God
3. all monotheistic religions worship the same God

Are there some monotheistic or abrahamic religions that are not Jews, Muslims or Christians?

 

[Daniel9v9]

I think you mean through Christ. We may worship the Father, we may worship the HS, what makes this worship acceptable is the sanctification through Christ, and without Christ, there is no sanctification so without Christ worship is meaningless. But I'm not talking about correct worship I'm talking about the referent of worship, you seem to not be able to separate these concepts.

Yes, we worship through Christ, but we also worship the person of Jesus Christ and that's precisely the point. We worship God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit - one God. You can't, on one hand, reject Christ and not worship Christ and at the same time worship the Father, for it is one God. The referent is Christ as much as it is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

A very simple illustration:
Christians worship Christ - God.
People of other religions do not worship Christ and therefore they do not worship God. The objects of their worship are various forms of idols.

 

[Archivist]

What is the difference between these three options?

1. Jews, Muslims and Christians worship the same God
2. all Abrahamic religions worship the same God
3. all monotheistic religions worship the same God

Are there some monotheistic or abrahamic religions that are not Jews, Muslims or Christians?

I could be wrong, but I thought Sikhism was a monotheistic religion.

 

[Archivist]

Yes, we worship through Christ, but we also worship the person of Jesus Christ and that's precisely the point. We worship God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit - one God. You can't, on one hand, reject Christ and not worship Christ and at the same time worship the Father, for it is one God. The referent is Christ as much as it is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

A very simple illustration:
Christians worship Christ - God.
People of other religions do not worship Christ and therefore they do not worship God. The objects of their worship are various forms of idols.

That is why I have said that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the God of Abraham, and to that extent (and only to that extent) we worship the same God. The Jews and Muslims have an incorrect understand of God, so they are not worshiping Christ.

 

[FireDragon76]

I disagree, but test yourself this way--

Do Mormons worship the same God or believe in the same Christ...as do orthodox Christians? I think, as I believe most Christians do, that if anyone gives his allegiance to some construct that is not our God...but then slaps the same name on that entity, it really is not the same God, despite the name and the claim.

Mormons are not monotheists, so no. Muslims and Jews are monotheists and believe in only one God.

 

[DamianWarS]

I could be wrong, but I thought Sikhism was a monotheistic religion.

Sikhism is not Abrahamic, but it's somewhat a product of Muslims. essentially Sikhs are fighting Hindus when Muslims came and started to kill Hindus. Other Abrahamic religions that I can think of are the Samaritans (Samaritanism?) Baha'i and Rastafarianism. I'm sure there's more.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think it's less binary as it is more spectrum. I voted on all the Abrahamic religions worship the same God; though I suppose there could be caveats to that, depending on what we mean by Abrahamic religion (e.g. I wouldn't regard Gnostics, Manicheans, or Mandaeans as Abrahamic here, even though there are Abrahamic influences).

But I think biblically the idea of a spectrum makes the most sense, for example considering what St. Paul says to the Athenians gathered at the Areopagus and the "unknown god". Not that the "unknown god" really was YHVH, but that Paul seems to point their misguided worship toward proper worship. The nations worshiped false gods and idols out of ignorance.

The impulse toward worship and religion isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing, it is a God-given impulse that finds its true purpose in God as He makes Himself known through Christ to the world. Error, of degrees, is how that impulse is directed away from God toward other things--toward wrong ideas about God, to false gods, to idols, and even to any number of things.

At least I hope my thoughts are making sense here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is the difference between these three options?

1. Jews, Muslims and Christians worship the same God
2. all Abrahamic religions worship the same God
3. all monotheistic religions worship the same God

Are there some monotheistic or abrahamic religions that are not Jews, Muslims or Christians?

Baha'ism is also an Abrahamic religion. As is Samaritanism.

There are and have been a number of monotheistic religions that aren't Abrahamic (or strictly Abrahamic), such as Yazdanism and Mandaism; though both have major influences from the Abrahamic tradition. There is also Sikhism as mentioned already. An ancient monotheistic religion that was short lived was Atenism, for a short period a Pharoah in Egypt named Akhenaten (the grandfather of Tutenkhamun, original name being Tutenkhaten. Akhenaten rejected Egyptian polytheism and instead argued that the only god was the sun itself, or "Aten", the sun-disk. Akhenaten tried to reform the entire Egyptian religion to a monotheistic religion dedicated to the worship of Aten, but ultimately after Akhenaten's death Egypt fell back into the hands of the priests and, under Tutenkhamun the old ways returned completely. Some forms of Hinduism could arguably be considered monotheistic; as Hinduism isn't so much a religion itself as it is a highly diverse set of spiritual, religious, and philosophical views--in fact there are atheistic forms of Hinduism as well.

-CryptoLutheran