Who worships the same God?

[DamianWarS]

Islam is neither a case of failing to understand Christ, nor do they know him. That would be a gross misrepresentation, for they make different claims regarding the person of Jesus Christ that are counter to the apostolic accounts. That is, it's not only a misinterpretation of Christ, but false teaching concerning Christ, which is an important point of difference. Basically, Islam teaches a fundamentally different doctrine from the Gospel, and in doing so, most certainly reject Christ, the author of the Gospel. Furthermore, a person is not required to fully understand that he rejects God in order to rebel and sin against God; we can and indeed do sin against God unknowingly on many points, for we are by nature spiritually dead and children of wrath, only saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

In the 7th century, the Arab Peninsula (AP) was largely an unreached area and the Christianity that did enter was Nestorian. Nestorius was an exiled bishop in the 5th century for believing in a dual nature of Christ and labelled a heretic. He went to the AP and spread the gospel there since the AP wasn't under the jurisdiction of the church. Nestorius was a Nicene Christian and his thoughts of dual nature of Christ actually is closer to what became orthodox and he really is an early father of this doctrine so really a heretic was the wrong word.

What was wrong is that without guidance and accountability an emerging church in the AP would be inevitable to stray since there was no one to keep them on track. The church would label it all as heretical and would be apathetic to come in a give it guidance demonizing it as they did Nestorius. Nestorian Christianity would not mirror Nestorius's belief, it is a wandering from the gospel that Nestorius brought without and Sheppard to bring them in. There were churches in the AP that did, in fact, worship a tri-theistic God including Mary as one of the deities.

Muhammad had a lot of influence from Christianity from his early years and his first wife was even Christian, probably Nestorian. His position was quite sympathetic to Christians and Jews and it could be argued that early Islam was form of Christianity and he would probably have seen it as the same. Muhammad himself can be looked at as a Moses figure as he de-paganized the AP and put into motion a monotheistic belief system, although not explicitly said Moses essentially had the same task. However as his power increase and the reach of Islam he encountered heretical Christianity making God into 3 gods. This would have may have confused the topic of Trinity with him exposing to him perhaps a masked paganism. He would have vehemently been monotheistic and rejecting these movements and this develops into his later years where he because anti-christian or anti-jewish.

A comprehensive analysis and study actually shows that what Muhammad probably rejected was heretical Christianity and he was against anything that wasn't monothesistic. Had the Church help the Nestorian believers perhaps Muhammad today would have been called a saint of the church and shepherd of the AP rather than an enemy. Today we demonize Islam and refuse to look at its roots and how they developed. Islam is not a path to salvation but it could be used to help reveal Christ in truth where Muhammad got such a poor slice of.

 

[Daniel9v9]

In the 7th century, the Arab Peninsula (AP) was largely an unreached area and the Christianity that did enter was Nestorian. Nestorius was an exiled bishop in the 5th century for believing in a dual nature of Christ and labelled a heretic. He went to the AP and spread the gospel there since the AP wasn't under the jurisdiction of the church. Nestorius was a Nicene Christian and his thoughts of dual nature of Christ actually is closer to what became orthodox and he really is an early father of this doctrine so really a heretic was the wrong word.

What was wrong is that without guidance and accountability an emerging church in the AP would be inevitable to stray since there was no one to keep them on track. The church would label it all as heretical and would be apathetic to come in a give it guidance demonizing it as they did Nestorius. Nestorian Christianity would not mirror Nestorius's belief, it is a wandering from the gospel that Nestorius brought without and Sheppard to bring them in. There were churches in the AP that did, in fact, worship a tri-theistic God including Mary as one of the deities.

Muhammad had a lot of influence from Christianity from his early years and his first wife was even Christian, probably Nestorian. His position was quite sympathetic to Christians and Jews and it could be argued that early Islam was form of Christianity and he would probably have seen it as the same. Muhammad himself can be looked at as a Moses figure as he de-paganized the AP and put into motion a monotheistic belief system, although not explicitly said Moses essentially had the same task. However as his power increase and the reach of Islam he encountered heretical Christianity making God into 3 gods. This would have may have confused the topic of Trinity with him exposing to him perhaps a masked paganism. He would have vehemently been monotheistic and rejecting these movements and this develops into his later years where he because anti-christian or anti-jewish.

A comprehensive analysis and study actually shows that what Muhammad probably rejected was heretical Christianity and he was against anything that wasn't monothesistic. Had the Church help the Nestorian believers perhaps Muhammad today would have been called a saint of the church and shepherd of the AP rather than an enemy. Today we demonize Islam and refuse to look at its roots and how they developed. Islam is not a path to salvation but it could be used to help reveal Christ in truth where Muhammad got such a poor slice of.

It's not about demonizing Islam. It's about what is Christian doctrine and what is not. Islam is not.

Most heresies in Church history are not born out of malicious intent, but actually - at least considered from a human perspective - good intentions. It's typically a strong emphasis on a particular doctrine meant to defend or combat something else, to a point where it gets pushed to an extreme and becomes false. My point is - many sects and movements even in NT times had an idea of Christ and believed in one god, same as Islam and Rabinnical Judaism. These, however, were condemned by the apostles and even more significantly by Christ.

When it comes to other teachings that reject Christ, they are not innocent of it. That's not the Biblical view, for God hates false teachings of all kinds. Even if we suppose that a heresy at its core or intention is founded on truth, the heretical doctrine goes above and beyond what Scripture teaches. It overrules God's Word. This is why it's heretical. This is why it's condemned and not Christian.

 

[JosephZ]

And Muslims worship Allah, not YHVH. They are two totally different entities. Liberals have sung many to sleep about Muslims and Christians worshipping the same deity but that is not true. Not even Muslims believe that.

Below is what Muslims believe:

“We believe in God; and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus; and in what was given to the prophets—from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender.” (Qur'an 2:136)

And here's another verse from the Qur'an:

"So if you are in doubt about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those (The Jews and Christians) who have been reading the Scripture (The Torah and the Injeel/Gospel) before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters". (Qur'an 10:94)

Islam is a progressive religion and in the view of Muslims simply a continuation of Judaism and Christianity. If you ever have the opportunity to listen to an Islamic sermon or witness to Muslims you will find that they not only teach and learn from what Muhammad said, but also Moses, David, Jesus, etc.. Islam recognizes the same prophets as Christians.

In this verse the Torah is referred to in the Qur'an:

All food was permissible to the Children of Israel, except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, “Bring the Torah, and read it, if you are truthful.” Whoever forges lies about God after that—these are the unjust. Say, “God has spoken the truth, so follow the religion of Abraham... (Qur'an 3:93-95)

In the following verse the Torah and the Gospel are mentioned and how Jesus fulfilled what is written in the Torah:

In their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous. So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what God revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what God revealed are the sinners. (Qur'an 5:46-47)

Once again, Muslims believe in the God of Abraham:

"We will worship thy God, the God of our forefathers Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and unto Him will we surrender ourselves." (Qur'an 2:133)

As you can see from the above verses, Muslims are worshiping the same God as Christians and Jews. The Qur'an even tells Muslims to follow the religion of Abraham, and as we we know, Abraham worshiped the one true God.

Muslims do not know Jesus and if you ever plan to witness to a Muslim and you start out by trying to convince them that they are not worshiping the same God, you will push them even further away from Christ than they already are.

I hope you will take the time to learn more about Islam and Muslims because Christians spreading misinformation online and elsewhere about them creates a stumbling block to the gospel.

 

[Albion]

Muslims, in fact, do believe Allah and the Christian/Jewish God are the same as it says this in the Quran they just don't believe the Christian/Jewish systems are the right ways.

That's what you are supposed to say, but Allah was already known to the Arabs in Mohammads day as a pagan god.

When Mohammad became aware of Jewish and Christian beliefs concerning God and incorporated some of those into his faith and into the concept of Allah as he already knew him, would it not be accurate to say that that product---an amalgamated God--was not truly the "same" as the God of the other two faiths?

 

[JosephZ]

Allah was already known to the Arabs in Mohammads day as a pagan god.

Source?

would it not be accurate to say that that product---an amalgamated God--was not truly the "same" as the God of the other two faiths?

Based on the verses found in the Qur'an below, the God that Muhammad is describing can't possibly be an amalgamated God.

"We will worship thy God, the God of our forefathers Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and unto Him will we surrender ourselves." (Qur'an 2:133)

“We believe in God; and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus; and in what was given to the prophets—from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender.” (Qur'an 2:136)

The Father of Abraham is the only God there is.

 

[DamianWarS]

That's what you are supposed to say, but Allah was already known to the Arabs in Mohammads day as a pagan god.

When Mohammad became aware of Jewish and Christian beliefs concerning God and incorporated some of those into his faith and into the concept of Allah as he already knew him, would it not be accurate to say that that product---an amalgamated God--was not truly the "same" as the God of the other two faiths?

and what about pre-exodus Isreal? how monotheistic do you think they were? Moses's task was depaganizing the Israelites, in fact, a lot of early Genesis accounts have a very pagan feel to them and I wouldn't be surprised to learn they are contextualized accounts refocused to give glory to God... Muhumand had a similar agenda, he kept Allah and threw out the rest (literally). Allah was not a name picked out of a hat, Arabic speaking Jews and Christians would also use Allah to describe God and it most likely considered a supreme creator deity pre-Islam. So when he heard them speak of Allah and then cast off all the pagan stuff what do you think his agenda was? It turned political but what was its beginnings?

 

[Albion]

and what about pre-exodus Isreal? how monotheistic do you think they were? Moses's task was depaganizing the Israelites, in fact, a lot of early Genesis accounts have a very pagan feel to them and I wouldn't be surprised to learn they are contextualized accounts refocused to give glory to God... Muhumand had a similar agenda, he kept Allah and threw out the rest (literally).

Well, you asked me, and my reaction is to think "so what?"

If we agree to everything you mentioned there, it still does not make the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims the same (as was the question).

Allah was not a name picked out of a hat, Arabic speaking Jews and Christians would also use Allah to describe God and it most likely considered a supreme creator deity pre-Islam.

They use the word that way now, but there was an entity with an identity that the pagan Arabs believed in and called by that name before Mohammad came along. It was that mythical being that he merged with what he picked up from Jews and Christians.

 

[worshipjunkie]

Source?


Based on the verses found in the Qur'an below, the God that Muhammad is describing can't possibly be an amalgamated God.

"We will worship thy God, the God of our forefathers Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and unto Him will we surrender ourselves." (Qur'an 2:133)

“We believe in God; and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus; and in what was given to the prophets—from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender.” (Qur'an 2:136)

The Father of Abraham is the only God there is.

If it's not Trinitarian, it's not the same God. If Mohammed was trying to somehow mix or develop revelation, then whether he says it's the God of Abraham or not, amalgamated it is. Saying something doesn't make it so. And the New Testament is abundantly clear that you cannot worship the Father without worshipping the Son. To say otherwise is a huge barrier in spreading the Gospel because, if after all, they worship the same God, then they must be fine, right?

O People of the Scripture. do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

— Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 116-118

And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken [for Himself] a son." You have done an atrocious thing. The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation that they attribute to the Most Merciful a son. And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son. There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant.

— Qur'an, sura 19 (Maryam (sura)), ayat 88-93

Sura 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

 

[DamianWarS]

Well, you asked me, and my reaction is to think "so what?"

if the response to pagan Isreal before monotheism is "so what?" then why should the response to pagan Arabs before monotheism be any different?

If we agree to everything you mentioned there, it still does not make the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims the same (as was the question).

I'm showing the flaw of your argument. Just because the beginning was paganism doesn't mean it can't change. This is true with pre-exodus Isreal and this is true with our English word "God". Where do you think that word came from or do we do a better job at pagan cleansing? pagan forms are adopted all the time without carrying over lasting pagan values or having those values become the principal identity of their beliefs. Christianity is full of Pagan forums and to be honest some haven't been very successfully cleansed of their pagan values but this doesn't turn God into a pagan god.

the name Allah Pre-Islam was used by Arab Christians and used as a creator deity among the Arab pagans. Muhammad comes along and says paganism is wrong and uses Allah as the true God and you call it a bluff saying their Allah is still too pagan. What if a Muslim converts to Christianity and still uses Allah which God do they worship then?

They use the word that way now, but there was an entity with an identity that the pagan Arabs believed in and called by that name before Mohammad came along. It was that mythical being that he merged with what he picked up from Jews and Christians.

welcome to missiology 101. When a people group accepts a different belief system there is a wound carried over of the previous system that takes time to fully heal and there can be values that always stick around... but are Christians any different? why do you think the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years so that all the old guys would die off? This process seeks to cleanse the referent for God not corrupt it.

 

[JosephZ]

If it's not Trinitarian, it's not the same God. If Mohammed was trying to somehow mix or develop revelation, then whether he says it's the God of Abraham or not, amalgamated it is. Saying something doesn't make it so.

What about Jews, do you believe they are also not worshiping the same God as Christians? That would be pretty silly to think that they aren't wouldn't it? If you were going to witness to a Jew, would you tell them that they are worshiping another God besides the God of Abraham? I would hope not.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims are worshiping the same God, it's only that Jews and Muslims have a different understanding of who God is. It makes no difference what you and I think or believe, it's what the Jew and the Muslim believes in their heart and mind that matters. They both worship the God of Abraham, the creator of all things. There is no other God than the one true God. So if Jews and Muslims aren't worshiping the one true God of Abraham, then who/what are they worshiping?

And the New Testament is abundantly clear that you cannot worship the Father without worshipping the Son. To say otherwise is a huge barrier in spreading the Gospel because, if after all, they worship the same God, then they must be fine, right?

When it comes to the issue of salvation, no, they are not fine as Jesus said "I and the Father are one... I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Even then, that doesn't mean that a Jew or a Muslim can't or isn't worshiping the Father.

 

[Albion]

if the response to pagan Isreal before monotheism is "so what?" then why should the response to pagan Arabs before monotheism be any different?

The Hebrews began there but did not remain pagan. The god of Mohammad was never abandoned. As I explained, he was merely merged with what appealed to Mohammad about Judaism and Christianity. That god is an amalgamation.

I'm showing the flaw of your argument. Just because the beginning was paganism doesn't mean it can't change.

Well, I hope that you see now that there was no "flaw" after all.

 

[JosephZ]

there was an entity with an identity that the pagan Arabs believed in and called by that name before Mohammad came along. It was that mythical being that he merged with what he picked up from Jews and Christians.

The god of Mohammad was never abandoned. As I explained, he was merely merged with what appealed to Mohammad about Judaism and Christianity. That god is an amalgamation.

What sources are you using to come to this conclusion?

 

[worshipjunkie]

What about Jews, do you believe they are also not worshiping the same God as Christians? That would be pretty silly to think that they aren't wouldn't it? If you were going to witness to a Jew, would you tell them that they are worshiping another God besides the God of Abraham? I would hope not.

No, I don't believe Jews are worshipping the same God. You cannot separate worship of the Father from worship of the Son and the Holy Spirit. You seem to think you can, that somehow you can parcel out the Trinity to where worship to one "part" of it counts as worship of the whole.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims are worshiping the same God, it's only that Jews and Muslims have a different understanding of who God is. It makes no difference what you and I think or believe, it's what the Jew and the Muslim believes in their heart and mind that matters. They both worship the God of Abraham, the creator of all things. There is no other God than the one true God. So if Jews and Muslims aren't worshiping the one true God of Abraham, then who/what are they worshiping?

They can believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham all they want, and believe it sincerely, and be sincerely wrong. To both the Jew and the Muslim the true nature of God has been revealed, just as it has to you and I. To reject it in favor of your own worship is not truly worshipping God. Jesus was very clear on that.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” (John 8:42-47)

Who are they worshipping? Ultimately, a false god, just like any other religion that rejects the truth given to them by the one and only God, a Trinitarian God, a God whose fullest revelation is in Jesus Christ.

For all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols, but the LORD made the heavens. (Psalm 96:5)

"No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. (1 Corinthians 10:20)

No one is saying that you go up to a Jew or a Muslim and as your opening salvo tell them they're worshipping false gods. You shouldn't do that to a Hindu or a Wiccan either. It's not going to start out the conversation on a good footing. But you also shouldn't shy away from the truth- and we are doing Jews and Muslims no favor by telling them that they can truly worship God without worshipping His Son.

When it comes to the issue of salvation, no, they are not fine as Jesus said "I and the Father are one... I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Even then, that doesn't mean that a Jew or a Muslim can't or isn't worshiping the Father.

If they are truly worshipping God while rejecting Jesus, how then can we claim any exclusivity?

 

[JosephZ]

No, I don't believe Jews are worshipping the same God. You cannot separate worship of the Father from worship of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Who are they worshipping? Ultimately, a false god, just like any other religion that rejects the truth given to them by the one and only God, a Trinitarian God, a God whose fullest revelation is in Jesus Christ.

Did God change when Jesus arrived? Of course not, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Just because Jesus and the gospel has been revealed to us, doesn't mean that the God Jews worshiped for centuries prior to the arrival of Christ and have continued to worship for centuries after isn't the same God.

When the Jews during Jesus' earthly ministry heard Him teach and they rejected His message, afterwards when they went to the synagogues to pray, were they then praying to a false God simply because they had heard the truth from Jesus? Of course not.

Jews and Muslims simply reject Jesus and the gospel, that doesn't make them worshipers of a false God. Both the Torah and the Qur'an make it very clear that the God of Israel is the one true God and this is the God they worship.

If they are truly worshipping God while rejecting Jesus, how then can we claim any exclusivity?

We can't claim any exclusivity to God because there is only one God and He is not the property or possession of any one religion or ideology. We belong to God, He doesn't belong to us.

 

[worshipjunkie]

Did God change when Jesus arrived? Of course not, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Just because Jesus and the gospel has been revealed to us, doesn't mean that the God Jews worshiped for centuries prior to the arrival of Christ and have continued to worship for centuries after isn't the same God.

They have chosen to reject the revelation of God in His Son. They are responsible for that rejection. God did not change, but what they knew about Him did change, and they were responsible for that truth. When the fullness of truth comes, to continue to try to hold on to the former is choosing your own image of God over the truth.

When the Jews during Jesus' earthly ministry heard Him teach and they rejected His message, afterwards when they went to the synagogues to pray, were they then praying to a false God simply because they had heard the truth from Jesus? Of course not.

Jesus said differently. Jesus said that if God was their Father (in other words, if they truly worshipped Him), they would not reject Him and that they could not worship the Father without the Son.

Jews and Muslims simply reject Jesus and the gospel, that doesn't make them worshipers of a false God. Both the Torah and the Qur'an make it very clear that the God of Israel is the one true God and this is the God they worship.

Those who reject the Gospel are not worshipping the one true God, no matter how much they say they are. There is one God, and one truth, and God is one God eternally existent in three Persons.

Who are they worshipping, if they worship God? Since the Son and the Holy Spirit cannot be divided from God, you're saying that without intending to and in fact being hostile to the idea, they are worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Where in Scripture does it say it's ok to worship the Father and not worship the Son? Where does it say that the Jews worship "in spirit and in truth" while rejecting Jesus? It makes no sense.

We can't claim any exclusivity to God because there is only one God and He is not the property or possession of any one religion or ideology. We belong to God, He doesn't belong to us.

I mean for the purposes of salvation. How do we tell them they're worshipping God (and that by doing so they're actually worshipping the Trinity without intention) and then tell them that they must have Jesus for salvation? That's why so many who hold this belief believe it's anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim to evangelize these groups.