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Featured Islam Who Killed Mohammed video

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Pavel Mosko, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I saw this video a few minutes back from a Christian Apologist who specialty is studying Islam and taking to Muslims. I found it very informative and well worth the 25 minutes spent watching it, so I'm posting a thread on it. But in looking, at some of the different specific board rules it seemed like this was the best place for it even though this isn't your regular debate type post. (I will happily discuss it and debate it though.)


     
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  2. Truth light

    Truth light Newbie

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  3. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes I googled an answer similar to that from a Muslim wiki. I figured they would have some kind of answer for the problem seeing how it has been around for over 1300 years, and the Faith seems to be doing well in spite of it.
     
  4. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    It strikes me that Zawadi is trying to have things both ways by first establishing (convincingly, I should say) that "cutting the aorta" was used as a kind of metaphor for death more generally and Wood cannot establish conclusively that it was meant literally in the Qur'an rather than in this more general sense, but then later in the same article stating "Thirdly, Wood clearly doesn't get the point of Surah 69:46. The verse is simply stating that if the Prophet (peace be upon him) ascribed some false things to Allah, then Allah would instantly kill him by cutting off his aorta. That's all it is saying."

    If Wood is automatically wrong because he cannot establish that the phrase was meant literally in the Qur'an (due to his lack of Arabic-language knowledge or for any other reason), then why does Zawadi (who presumably does know Arabic) later assert that it was meant in exactly that way in that verse?

    That makes no sense.
     
  5. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I guess I was somewhat willing to give Z the benefit of the doubt because there can be parallel word definitions in Christianity especially over the ever virginity of Mary, where Protestants find a seemingly damning proof texts and Catholics and Orthodox have to remind them of the nature of certain Hebrew and Aramaic words like the word for brothers for instance means more than literal biological brothers.

    But saying that when it comes to Shirk and Trinitarianism Islam generally does not give Christianity the benefit of the doubt when it comes to various connotations of words and idioms.
     
  6. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Sure, but you don't generally find Orthodox or Catholic Christians arguing with Protestants that they have an incorrect interpretation of what the word "brother" means in Aramaic because in whatever verse in question it means exactly what the Protestants say it means... :doh:
     
  7. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    seems a little circular, are we saying Surah 69:44-46 is a true revelation? Also what evidence is there that this isn't merely a cultural expression of death since it is well known that Muslims enjoyed the idea of death in battle, this idea of severing the aorta could be an expression that simply means dying.

    A modern English translation by M. A. S. Abdel Haleem says
    "if [the Prophet] had attributed some fabrication to Us, We would certainly have seized his right hand and cut off his lifeblood"

    another modern translation by Safi Kaskas that uses biblical references says
    Had he (the Messenger) falsely attributed some statements to Us, We would have seized him by the right arm. Then We would have slashed his lifeline,

    we like "Grandma passed away last night" did a 7th-century Arab say "Allah severed grandma's aorta last night" it's odd to call it euphemistic to honor the victim, then "severing the aorta" could be a type euphemism to force a violent death.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  8. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I think the Apologist seems to indicate that God might have allowed one of Mohammed's prophecies to come to true to self invalidate it for people who have "the eyes to see".

    From what I can tell, most of Mohammed's prophecies were demonically given to him. I find the first part of his life very telling. He believed what was happening was through demons, but his wife had to persuade him to believe in it etc. It reminds me of the Garden of Eden, or the story of Jezebel and King Ahab.
     
  9. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    I would still lean towards this cutting the aorta as a common expression meaning death by force and I would like to see these words explored more in other 7th century Arab texts. It seems odd for Muhammad to reject himself as a prophet by saying these words and it seems odder his followers would preserve these words in his memory. I mean what does a severed aorta feel like anyway? Maybe he's just saying he feels like he's dying.

    The hadith and Quran also use different words for aorta and to me it's an arbitrary difference but Muslims seem to think it makes these unconnected. Perhaps but I think it's a poor argument. To me it feels euphemistic and this would make sense why it would be used so carelessly in his last words, perhaps it was remorse and he wanted to expose himself but I"m still going with both feel like expressions.

    I say it seems like an expression because it's a very specific thing to say and would seem quite odd if it wasn't euphemistic. Like if I said "may God cut my thumbs off if..." would invoke a response of "why would God want to cut off your thumbs?" if it's an odd thing people question it which is why I don't think it was odd but quite common.
     
  10. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I could see it as an idiom for something like "stabbing pain".

    The saying "seized with the right hand" was definitely a common idiom for taking something by force or strength.
     
  11. MariaJLM

    MariaJLM Crazy Cat Lady

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    I'm actually of the stance that Islam did not start as a religion independent from Judaism and Christianity, but rather as a heresy of Christianity. It's likely that Muhammad had contact with Arian priests and Gnostic priests, picking up much theology from them. The Islamic version of God the Father is very reminiscent of God the Father within the Old Testament: legalistic and driven by vengeance. Not to mention the whole "Jesus is only a man" thing, plus the iconoclasm and "Jesus didn't die on the cross".

    I know saying this will ruffle the feathers of some of our Protestant members, but Islam and certain denominations of Protestantism actually have a lot in common. Both are also considered heretical by the Orthodox church.
     
  12. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I can sort of see that. Mohammed teaching bears the Marks of the Ebionites, and Docetic Gnostics, and he likely did meet Arians. I however think he does fit the profile of an inventor of a religions. He actually is a lot like Mani of Manicheanism except Mani was more moral and less successful. But Mani religion was based on a blend of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity. It became more Christianized as it migrated west. With Mohammed his faith started as a kind of heretical Christian and Jewish blend, became more Jewish in its mid years (trying to recruit the local Jews), then became more pagan (the Hajj and Kaaba stuff) in its later years when he gave up on the Jews and decided to steal, exterminate, and subjugate them.
     
  13. MariaJLM

    MariaJLM Crazy Cat Lady

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    Hajj itself I wouldn't say is explicitly Pagan since pilgrimages are a common thing in many religions, but the whole praying towards a black box with a meteorite inside it definitely reeks of Paganism.
     
  14. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    That's true seeing Holy Sites, spiritual tourism is something humans do in general, but the Hajj, circumbulating the Kaaba, and other related customs were directly lifted from that southern version of Ashera and Baal worship. That is some of the reason some people see Mecca as the Babylon of the Bible.


     
  15. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Same can be said about bible. That does not mean anything.
    I think he did not think of it as demons but was no doubt scared as he was not sure what was happening. You missed to say the part where gabriel did visit him enough times and it was not him just thinking about it
     
  16. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While there are no marks or symbols Islam there are in Christianity which is similar to early paganism
     
  17. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The hadith that Umer clearly said that he only kisses the stone because he saw the prophet kiss it and said it can neither benefit him nor harm him is evidence there is no exaggerated importance given to the stone. While compared to Christianity there is enough similarities between early paganism and even lot of similarities between Jesus and other pagan figures like mithras
     
  18. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    :clap: Nice try. There is a huge difference between scholarly speculation and historic fact.


     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  19. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The source you have given me is an anti Islam channel which has no value to me as the motive is already biased. There are enough documentaries about how Christianity is paganism.


     
  20. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Also note that the person you are quoting is a joker and has no scholarly material
     
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