Islam Who Killed Mohammed video

Pavel Mosko

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No real point other than I like other kinds of music outside of the church. And its another reason why I hope your Faith does not gain traction in the west, because I think it will be something of a kill joy.
 
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Godistruth1

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No real point other than I like other kinds of music outside of the church. And its another reason why I hope your Faith does not gain traction in the west, because I think it will be something of a kill joy.
Happiness is not music or dance but peace that God gives us by following his path. Rock or heavy metal music is also forbidden by Christian priests.
 
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dzheremi

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Yes Islam is against secular music. Is there a point you're trying to make?

Whelp...we've found the Salafist! How surprising. :rolleyes:

No real point other than I like other kinds of music outside of the church. And its another reason why I hope your Faith does not gain traction in the west, because I think it will be something of a kill joy.

Not to mention a 'kill-people' when they don't obey its laws, even ones over which there is some debate or controversy within the different streams of Islamic thought, such as this one. There was a documentary put out by the BBC a few years ago, I think just called "Music in Afghanistan" (I have it on DVD, but it's in storage), which talks about the place of music in Afghan society both pre- and post-Taliban, and there are a few stories in it that are absolutely shocking, such as when the family of Mahwash, a very famous female singer in Afghanistan since the 1960s, tried to poison her to get her to stop singing. If I recall correctly, similar danger was faced by Naghma, a more recent Afghan singer who is famous in the diaspora (though I think in that case it was that her brother tried to stab her; can't remember).

And this is not just a problem in Afghanistan or among tribally-minded Afghans. There was an Egyptian movie starring iconic singer and actress Om Kalsoum back in the 1940s that dealt with this same issue. It is not uncommon to read that a particular female singer who might've been quite popular secularly stopped singing upon "taking the veil", as they call it. This happened with the incredibly famous Egyptian singer and actress Shadia from the 1950s and 1960s (performed in over 100 films in that time). Also male popular singers do this, though obviously not by "taking the veil". The Lebanese pop singer Fadl Shaker stopped singing in 2011 after declaring his allegiance to Salafist ideas (who are on the more conservative/anti-music side) and participating in an armed conflict in South Lebanon in which Islamist militants killed nearly 60 people, including 18 Lebanese soldiers. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison by a Lebanese court for participating in the conflict, but has avoided jail by hiding out in a Palestinian refugee camp.

Lebanon is, as I'm sure you know, seen as something of a model of interfaith tolerance in the Middle Eastern region, in which Christian artists (and, to be fair, most Muslims) have no problem singing religious songs and popular ones and not murdering or attempting to murder anyone in the process! But those who do go crazy about this issue think they are following the example of their prophet Muhammad, and there are some Islamic traditions which back this up.

ٍChristian Lebanese pop singer of the 1950s-1970s Souad Hachem sings the Byzantine hymn "Al Youm 'Olliqa 'Ala al-Khashaba" ("Today is hung upon the tree"), sung much more famously by Fairuz

On the other hand, it was in Lebanon that famous singer Marcel Khalife (himself a Lebanese Maronite Catholic) was twice hauled into court on blasphemy charges over one of his songs "Ana Youssef ya Abi" (O My Father, I am Youssef), because it quoted from Surat Youssef in the Qur'an, and that angered the Islamic religious establishment in Lebanon:


So the permissibility of music has long been a source of tension within specifically Islamic cultures, and there are some Sufi traditions that allow it, even with musical instruments beyond the traditional frame drum (the one instrument that the more hardline sects seem to find permissible in the chanting of Islamic nasheeds -- unaccompanied religious chants that generally are allowed even by hardliners; the Taliban produced dozens of tapes of this stuff, for instance -- since it's supposedly mentioned in hadith someplace that Muhammad allowed it), such as these Sufis from Afghanistan featuring flute, rubab (Afghan lute), and tabla:


Sorry to blab on and on, but this is one of my favorite topics...probably because people who are more favorable towards Islam than I am try to make it seem like this is all 'cultural'...well, what is the cultural difference between the Lebanese Christians who are willing to sing the Qur'anic text reverently (but in a musical context that the Muslims disapprove of) and the Muslims who literally prosecute them for it? It's entirely a religious issue, because Islam in its more conservative/less secularized varieties is an intolerant, hateful religion, which as you have rightly pointed out sucks the joy out of everything.
 
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dzheremi

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It might interest you to know, just by the way, that the basis of Arabic (and by extension, Turkic Central Asian like Uzbek) folk music -- the melodic modes known as maqam -- is actually the preexisting Syriac modes/scales known as Kinto, which are used for Syriac religious chants as you'll find in the Beth Gazo, the treasury of Syriac Church chants mostly attributed to Mor Ephrem the Syrian (4th century, so obviously well before Muhammad and his religion).

In fact, the two systems line up so perfectly that here is a video featuring the Syriac modes, but with their Arabic names (in Syriac they would obviously have different names, but I don't know what they are):


The name of the first, Ajam, literally means "Foreign", showing that the Arabs who took these modes recognized them as not coming from within their own community, with the exception of maqam Hijazi, obviously named after the Hijaz region of what is today Saudi Arabia. Islamic websites try to take credit for at least that one, then, as though being from Hijaz somehow automatically gives the credit for it to their religion (rather than the much more obvious and likely explanation that there must've been Arabic-speaking Syriac Christians in Arabia, too, as actual history like the letter of HG Bishop Simeon of Beth Arsham to HG Simeon of Gabula concerning the Christians of Najran shows), but I digress...

As you can also read at that link, people are not supposed to recite the Qur'an according to the 'Arabic' maqamat system, yet it does still sometimes happen, even though the result may violate the Islamic rules of tajweed (rules of elocution in reciting the Qur'an).

Nevertheless, perhaps now you can see why Muslims (and I guess also western Christians who have never encountered such a thing) act so amazed when Arabic bible readings as we do them in the Coptic Orthodox Church or sometimes even those done in the Syriac Orthodox Church in the Syriac language "sound so much like the Qur'an!", as is the usual comment that you'll find on YouTube videos and such, sometimes followed by ignorant claims of Muslims that we are doing this to try to "copy" the Qur'an (hahahaha). Muslims tend to think that they and/or their religion are due the credit for absolutely everything, even those things which emerged long before their religion ever existed. I can only guess this is because they consign everything before Muhammad to what they arrogantly call the "Time of Ignorance" (al-Jahiliya), so they themselves are in fact ignorant of what came before their religion and how much their own religion took from others (and not just in this, but in things that showed up in the text of the Qur'an itself that are clearly from other sources, like Jesus making clay birds come to life or speaking from the cradle, which are found in the 4th-5th century Syriac Infancy Gospel, and are subsequently found in their Qur'anic recensions in 3:49 and 5:110, respectively), since their own religion's narrative tells them that they don't need to know anything about it.

At least we give proper credit to having taken the eight-mode system from the Greeks (for those of us that use it, that is), and the custom of religious chant more generally from the Jews, as is obvious when you observe the Orthodox practice of daily chanting of the Psalms at the 7 prescribed times per day.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Happiness is not music or dance but peace that God gives us by following his path.

Actually that is a Christian like sentiment!

But the other part of the statement is something I disagree with or object too. In that it reminds me of attending a Southern Baptist parochial school in my youth. It is reasonable to object to certain songs based on lyrics etc. but not really to do so based on an entire category. But that is what the Baptists did and in many ways they behaved like the Pharisees of the New Testament.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Lebanon is, as I'm sure you know, seen as something of a model of interfaith tolerance in the Middle Eastern region, in which Christian artists (and, to be fair, most Muslims) have no problem singing religious songs and popular ones and not murdering or attempting to murder anyone in the process! But those who do go crazy about this issue think they are following the example of their prophet Muhammad, and there are some Islamic traditions which back this up.

Yes I've heard vague saying about music etc. I didn't know pervasive the different attitudes are. Because I know, a certain amount of traditional music is allowed with all the belly dancing, veil dancing etc.

I did hear their is a special prohibition or taboo against the female voice (It's suppose to be a sing of End times corruption). So some Muslims might not like this video so much. (a good one for Easter).

 
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So the permissibility of music has long been a source of tension within specifically Islamic cultures, and there are some Sufi traditions that allow it,

the Sufi tradition has definitely been the most sympathetic and attractive tradition within Islam. That and a few other ones like the Ahmadi and probably a few other sects that are considered somewhat heretical by the Sunni majority.
 
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dzheremi

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Yes I've heard vague saying about music etc. I didn't know pervasive the different attitudes are. Because I know, a certain amount of traditional music is allowed with all the belly dancing, veil dancing etc.

Well even that music is not really 'traditional', in a sense. It is generally based around the maqamat, from what little I know (not a musicologist, but I have friends who studied bellydancing professionally), which marks it as secular folk music, such as is deemed not appropriate by the religion's hardliners. So that stuff would theoretically have to go, too.

I did hear their is a special prohibition or taboo against the female voice (It's suppose to be a sing of End times corruption). So some Muslims might not like this video so much. (a good one for Easter).


Hahaha. No, I imagine they wouldn't, on multiple levels. :) But I think it's more that Muslims are very strict regarding the division between the secular and the religious when it comes to music. I can get behind that, as the same is true (or supposed to be) in churches, and definitely still is in most Coptic churches (except for those that have erroneously embraced western "praise and worship" music in lieu of, e.g., Psalm 150 for communion; I've never actually been to one of those, but I know they exist and were a big enough issue some years ago that HH Pope Tawadros sent a committee of bishops to the USA, specifically to the D.C. area where the problem had been festering for a long time, to investigate it and return those errant parishes to Orthodoxy). I had a young Coptic friend of maybe 20 years of age stand up to her own priest once, protesting that she could not play the hymn "Wa Habibi" on piano during a recital because that's not a Coptic hymn, and besides, it was to be held in some part of the church building, and it is not appropriate to have a melody-producing instrument like the piano in church! :eek: Some people might consider that an 'extreme' attitude, but I took it as a sign that the Coptic Orthodox Church will weather the storm of Protestant influences and adjust to being both American and Orthodox with time. Similar opinions were expressed in sociolinguistic interviews I conducted (in the course of getting my masters in linguistics some years ago) among the youth ages 18-21 or so at the monastery of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite in New York, who grew up in the monastic environment (going to the church on the monastery grounds, and the other churches of the diocese affiliated with the monastery) and knew all the hymns and said that they would not be comfortable to perform any other chant than that which they had grown up with (the raising of incense, the liturgy, the tasbeha, etc.).

So I don't want to be too hard on Muslims who express similar sentiments, only to say that they (or rather some of them) take it way too far, to the point of defeating their purpose by turning people away from their religion and their idea of what worshiping God is. I do not like to say "Thanks be to God I am not like the others", as that is prideful and against the explicit instruction of the Holy Bible, but I will say I am glad to say that there is both the strong tradition of the Coptic Orthodox Church being kept alive from generation to generation, but also adaptation within acceptable limits among all of our churches in the OO communion to create a kind of popular music, too, so that we really don't need to rely on or introduce western 'praise and worship' music in place of theologically and practically Orthodox modes of modern worship (which is not to knock the western songs, only to say that they have their own roots and their own theology, which is not in the Orthodox Church, so they do not belong in the Orthodox Church).

I'm thinking here of the phenomenon of Coptic taraneem in Arabic as presented for popular consumption (i.e., outside of church/liturgy) in Egypt and other Arabic-speaking countries:

"We prostrate at the name of the Holy Trinity" as sung by Magdy Said (okay, maybe the world didn't need a reggae-ish version of the morning doxology, but here it is, and I'll be darned if it doesn't help me remember it a little bit better, since it's not in my language anyway)

The others even have what they have dubbed "Gospel music", with the appropriate instrumentation as befits their given regions/cultures.

Syriac Orthodox gospel music by Gudo d-Mor Ephrem (I believe this is another standard hymn text, just set to what you might find as a common type of melody for the folk music of the Syriac areas of Turkey):


Ethiopian singer Theodoros Tadesse sings 'Orthodox gospel music' (even though the Ethiopians use drums in some of their paraliturgical services, you can tell that this goes further than that and is meant to be consumed 'secularly' due to the presence of the one-stringed masinqo fiddle, which has never been incorporated into the EOTC properly, but is found in traditional Azmari folk music of the Ethiopian highlands):


I only post all this to demonstrate how it is possible to maintain a strong secular vs. church division in our music and still be good, theologically-solid Christians without going so far as to ban the secular music, let alone harm those who might play it. We instead simply establish rules regarding 'religious pop', which are to be followed if it is to be accepted and consumed by people (the danger of course if the wholesale incorporation of unorthodox ideas via this music, so it is a good idea to be careful), as explained below by HH Pope Tawadros II:


The most charitable I can probably be would be to say that if the Muslims had the correct faith to begin with, it would be a good impulse to use only God-honoring music and other arts, so I do not at all condemn the impulse (since we do share it, in a way), but they do go too far with it (it is never acceptable to threaten, harm, or kill singers, nor to ban music outright; we instead trust the person to conform all their lives to the faith, by metanoia rather than force), and I must be honest and faithful and say that it is to no good end on their part, as the god they believe they are serving by their harsh and barbaric methods and mindsets is false no matter how strict they are in following him/it.
 
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dzheremi

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the Sufi tradition has definitely been the most sympathetic and attractive tradition within Islam. That and a few other ones like the Ahmadi and probably a few other sects that are considered somewhat heretical by the Sunni majority.

It has been observed by people much smarter than me that Sufism most likely represents a development within Islam that probably came about via contact with Christianity, as it is much more inwardly focused than Islam usually is, and some Sufis even have saints in a way that is very roughly analogous to the Christian sense. This is one reason why you see groups like al-Shabaab in Somalia blowing up old grave sites; they would be visited by local Sufis, which to the 'orthodox' Sunni is akin to worship, or at least imitating the practices of the non-believers like the Christians, which is what they call innovation or "bid'a" in Islam, and is strictly forbidden. The same have even forbidden the traditional celebration of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's birthday -- known as mawlid -- on the same grounds. It's really quite sad and kind of scary how anti-everything this religion is, the closer it gets to being 'pure' in the minds of the Sunni majority. (Not that all Sunnis are extremists, not by a long shot, it's just that those who are....well, you see how they rampage through the world, bombing their way to jannah/Islamic heaven by killing infidels and hypocrites...or so they say their religion tells them, as the example of Muhammad and his successors can quite easily be read that way.)
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Well even that music is not really 'traditional', in a sense. It is generally based around the maqamat, from what little I know (not a musicologist, but I have friends who studied bellydancing professionally), which marks it as secular folk music, such as is deemed not appropriate by the religion's hardliners. So that stuff would theoretically have to go, too.

I forgot to mention this. I was really surprised when I heard two+ weeks ago, that the Red Hot Chili Peppers were allowed to play in Egypt, and by the Pyramids no less. I guess that sort of thing is good for tourism and public relations but thought the Muslim brotherhood that is very influential there would pitch a fit.

 
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dzheremi

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Egypt knows what's good for tourism, and it wasn't/isn't the Muslim Brotherhood. Sure, they're still out there and they probably hate that (heck, they probably hate the pyramids, too; check out the anonymous Salafi leader's statement in the Reuters article about covering up the Sphinx), but so long as they are politically disempowered (for now...), there's not a lot they can do besides perhaps kill some people or stage a demonstration or something.
 
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It has been observed by people much smarter than me that Sufism most likely represents a development within Islam that probably came about via contact with Christianity, as it is much more inwardly focused than Islam usually is, and some Sufis even have saints in a way that is very roughly analogous to the Christian sense

We were talking about Science fiction movies the previous week, on war movies, have you every seen "the Beast of War"? Interesting movie, and a Sufi mystic plays a small role.


 
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Hadn't heard of this one before, no! Looks interesting. I'll have to search it out. Thanks!

You can't get it on Netflix that DVD that I can see, but is available on you tube and amazon. It actually looks like it is better just to buy the DVD used for $2.49 at amazon. It was my favorite war movie for a long time, until Saving Private Ryan and some others came out. And I have generally gone out of my way to see ones, that are outside of the usual Western European and American end of history.

Another good one from the same year is the Finnish, the Winter War. Which I paid good money for 9 years or so ago, but is available for free on You-tube.

 
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dzheremi

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Hmm. That one looks interesting as well. The only movie I've ever seen involving the Finnish participation in the war was the joint Finnish-Russian production The Cuckoo (Kukushka), which is decidedly more comedic, though technically still a drama. It was recommended viewing in one of my Russian language courses in college. I used to get a lot more out of it when I still spoke Russian more fluently than I do now (since it's more about communication between three people who do not understand one another's languages), but it's still pretty good:

 
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Godistruth1

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Whelp...we've found the Salafist! How surprising
Was that supposed to mean something? You could use your energy to make a real argument instead is writing unnecessary.
Not to mention a 'kill-people' when they don't obey its laws, even ones over which there is some debate or controversy within the different streams of Islamic thought, such as this one. There was a documentary put out by the BBC a few years ago, I think just called "Music in Afghanistan" (I have it on DVD, but it's in storage), which talks about the place of music in Afghan society both pre- and post-Taliban, and there are a few stories in it that are absolutely shocking, such as when the family of Mahwash, a very famous female singer in Afghanistan since the 1960s, tried to poison her to get her to stop singing. If I recall correctly, similar danger was faced by Naghma, a more recent Afghan singer who is famous in the diaspora (though I think in that case it was that her brother tried to stab her; can't remember).

And this is not just a problem in Afghanistan or among tribally-minded Afghans. There was an Egyptian movie starring iconic singer and actress Om Kalsoum back in the 1940s that dealt with this same issue. It is not uncommon to read that a particular female singer who might've been quite popular secularly stopped singing upon "taking the veil", as they call it. This happened with the incredibly famous Egyptian singer and actress Shadia from the 1950s and 1960s (performed in over 100 films in that time). Also male popular singers do this, though obviously not by "taking the veil". The Lebanese pop singer Fadl Shaker stopped singing in 2011 after declaring his allegiance to Salafist ideas (who are on the more conservative/anti-music side) and participating in an armed conflict in South Lebanon in which Islamist militants killed nearly 60 people, including 18 Lebanese soldiers. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison by a Lebanese court for participating in the conflict, but has avoided jail by hiding out in a Palestinian refugee camp.

Lebanon is, as I'm sure you know, seen as something of a model of interfaith tolerance in the Middle Eastern region, in which Christian artists (and, to be fair, most Muslims) have no problem singing religious songs and popular ones and not murdering or attempting to murder anyone in the process! But those who do go crazy about this issue think they are following the example of their prophet Muhammad, and there are some Islamic traditions which back this up.
People doing something does not mean anything. Singing and listening to music is sin but not such as they should be killed for it. There have been so many Christians who have killed their babies and attributed the same to God. Infact maybe they are motivated by bible which tells you to dash babies against the wall and be blessed. Or punishing generations of people because of crime their forefathers committed. If you Wana have real debate why not tell me why your bible tells u to dash babies against wall and get blessed by doing that? Why people are to be killed for crime done by their forefathers and even livestock is to be killed? Also why God wanted 32 virgins for himself as per bible?
(Numbers 31:40-42)
Also why is there human sacrifice in the bible is so many verses. Here's an example
Exodus 22:29-30
You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.

You think your bible is peace and love yet it's nowhere near. Please answer my questions if you Wana have real discussion
 
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Actually that is a Christian like sentiment!

But the other part of the statement is something I disagree with or object too. In that it reminds me of attending a Southern Baptist parochial school in my youth. It is reasonable to object to certain songs based on lyrics etc. but not really to do so based on an entire category. But that is what the Baptists did and in many ways they behaved like the Pharisees of the New Testament.
Well this is our perception and does not matter. I could question you the same way by saying no music is bad. If someone thinks music is bad or someone says it's ok or be totally fine with whatever music then it's their perception. It does not decide truth path of God. I was hoping to discuss bible and quran which is the actual stuff to talk about
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Also why God wanted 32 virgins for himself as per bible?

Numbers 31:40-42 New Living Translation (NLT)
40 and 16,000 virgin girls, of whom 32 were the Lord’s share. 41 Moses gave all the Lord’s share to Eleazar the priest, just as the Lord had directed him.

42 Half of the plunder belonged to the people of Israel, and Moses separated it from the half belonging to the fighting men.

I believe the servants were used for the service of the tabernacle and to help the Levite priestly tribe with their various duties. Unlike Islam, Yahew had strict rules for using such people as sex slaves, if the person wanted them for that he had to free them and either mary them or take them as a concubine.



Exodus 21:7-11 New Living Translation (NLT)
7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.

10 “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
 
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of the tabernacle and to help the Levite priestly tribe with their various duties. Unlike Islam, Yahew had strict rules for using such people as sex slaves, if the person wanted them for that he had to free them and either mary them or take them as a concubine
Isn't concubine a slave. What's the difference. Islam is far better than the Christian version. We can have another discussion on that.
Exodus 21:7-11 New Living Translation (NLT)
You missed
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Also you missed to comment on being blessed by dashing babies against wall(Psalms 137:9) , unjust punishment of people, women, babies and even livestock. (1 Samuel 15:3) what did the donkey and the sheep do? and Exodus 22:29-30
 
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Isn't concubine a slave. What's the difference. Islam is far better than the Christian version. We can have another discussion on that.

Concubines could be taken from the slaves in the OT, but that was something of a promotion. Concubines are like low status wives, they were expected to taken care of but had no dowry, or wedding contract.

Slaves in the OT were not like slaves in other areas, they are actually more like indentured servants or surfs. They had basic rights, could not be treated cruelly etc. I believe they could actually marry etc. The Gibeonite water carriers and wood choppers of Joshua 9 and 10 would be an example.
 
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