R. Hartono
Well-Known Member
Upvote
0
Revelation 17:9-11
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
In Romans 17, John describes prostitute sitting on a beast. The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns.
The angel defines the 7 heads as seven hills with which the woman sits on. These 7 heads are also defined as 7 kings: 5 who have fallen, and 1 who is, and 1 yet to come.
Who is this 6th king that existed during the time of John?
Thanks. I made a mental mistake. I went back and corrected my post.Tiberius not Titus. Titus was Flavian, the family that took over after Nero's suicide.
Revelation 17:9-11
This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
In Romans 17, John describes prostitute sitting on a beast. The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns.
The angel defines the 7 heads as seven hills with which the woman sits on. These 7 heads are also defined as 7 kings: 5 who have fallen, and 1 who is, and 1 yet to come.
Who is this 6th king that existed during the time of John?
Do you really think Daniel was talking about Nebuchadnezzar? Did he qualify? Or did Daniel talked about Satan, the spiritual ruler of that time?
Didn't Satan have a kingdom, (Matthew 12:25-26) which was given to him and become the ruler of them all that Adam and Eve lost through disobedience?
For example, when Satan took Jesus up into the mountain to tempt him, Satan said:
Mat 4:8-9
[8] Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[9] And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
cfdude, the kings are men. In Revelation 13, one of the heads is mortally wounded but lived - would not apply to angels.* First, the angel that comes out of the abyss is called a king, prince or ruler in the greek (Rev 9:11).
* Second, in Rev 12:7, 9, it repeatedly describes Satan and “his angels”. It makes sense that these angel kings are also on his head. This is similar to the king and his locust army that comes out the abyss who also have crowns (Rev 9:7).
The question is why must you label the fourth king as Rome? Is it because you count the number of kingdoms after Babylon?
And you believe that the next two kingdoms were Persia and Greece. Okay, tell me how do you think these kingdoms were inferior to Babylon?
As for final kingdom, not only I ask you to explain the legs of Iron,
but also the feet and ten toes mixed with partly iron and partly potters' clay
What do these really represent the moment Christ established His kingdom at His First Coming?
Do you really think Daniel was talking about Nebuchadnezzar?
Why do you think Daniel interpreted King Nebuchadnezzar as "king of kings" who was given a kingdom, power, strength, and glory wheresoever the children of men dwells, beasts of the field, fowls of heaven, and made him ruler over them all?
Do you really think Daniel was talking about Nebuchadnezzar? Did he qualify?
Or did Daniel talked about Satan, the spiritual ruler of that time?
Didn't Satan have a kingdom,
Seven hills refers to Rome not Jerusalem.
John wrote this about 90 AD which dates the sixth king in the reign of Domitian -
and the evil empire yet to come.
But the main theme of Revelation is Christ not Caesar.
I agree
This is debatable. There is also evidence that it was written before the fall of Jerusalem.
Is there any other book that Christians argue for a later date besides revelation? It seems wierd that with all other books we argue for earlier dating with the exception of revelation.
Where does Daniel say there will be a 5th kingdom before the kingdom of God comes?
There is no +2000 year gap in the statue.
cfdude, the kings are men. In Revelation 13, one of the heads is mortally wounded but lived - would not apply to angels.
Satan is viewed as the beast in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12 because the actual beast persona is in the bottomless pit for the time stamps of those two chapters.
The beast does not come out of the bottomless pit until right before the second half of the seven years begins... which Satan does not represent the beast in Chapter 13.
The number of the beast is the number of a man.
When Jesus returns in Revelation 19, the beast is cast alive into the lake of fire. Satan is cast to a different place the bottomless pit, at that time. So Satan is not the beast. Satan will be worshiped in addition to the beast.
If later date then 6th king is Domitian if earlier then probably Nero. Both very anti Christian in their Outlook
I am not arguing for a 5th Kingdom but for a new Rome that has some Kind of continuity (probably in Terms of its principalities or demons with the old Rome). Rome itself was transformed by Christianity and Constantian/ Byzantine Empire lasted longer than the original pagan Roman empire as a Christian Empire. But I think we will see a restoration of pagan Rome before the end which will have a spiritual continuity with the old Roman Empire.
Julius Caesar was not an emperor, but he would be considered a king if we consider king as catch world for leader. The key thing was that they are of the Julio-Claudian clan.
Rome restored by someone acting in the conquerors spirit of the Flavian emperors for the seventh king.
Nowhere in Scripture that God has defined beast as man.
ou do not make sense. Christ represents His Body because His Elect has His Spirit. Satan represents his body, the Beast because enemies have his spirit.
God promised to set up his everlasting kingdom during the 4th kingdom. When did Christ go to a distant land to claim his kingdom? When he died, rose again, and ascended. This happened during the 4th kingdom which was Rome.
Additionally, history shows us that the prophecy of the Nebuchadnezzar statue came true. Babylon, then Persia-Mede, then Greece, then rome.
While each succeeding kingdom controlled more land than the previous kingdom, divisions in government were often more prominent with each succeeding kingdom.
Historically, Persian-median unity within its government and its world influence were inferior to Babylon. There were also divisions in the Greek government, as well as Roman.
I would make the guess, that the 10 toes are the same as the 10 horns in Daniel 7, which also could be related to the 10 horns and 7 kings in revelation 17.
As far as what they really represent, I’m making my best judgment based off scripture.
They are the gentile nations that would trample old covenant Jerusalem until Christ died , rose again, and ascended even until it’s final destruction In 70ad. Under the new covenant Jerusalem is not earthly, it is heavenly and can no longer be trampled.
He interpreted the dream for the king explaining the symbols of the vision. Where did he mention Satan?
Satan’s kingdoms are not his to give. Satan’s authority comes from God.
2Peter2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Revelation 12, apart from the first five verses which identity the woman in the rest of the chapter as Israel, presents the entire 7 years in front of it. The 1260 days before the war in heaven. And the time, times, half times after the war in heaven. The second heaven.
The beast persona is still in the bottomless pit at that time, before the 7 years begin.
In Revelation 17, the sixth king is ruling, at John's time, first century. The beast persona is still in the bottomless pit, then. The beast persona is not out of the bottomless pit until Revelation 13.
It may not be making sense to you because you have not analyzed (at least not correctly) the crowns on the heads and horns in Chapters 17, 12, and 13.
The changing of the crowns corresponds to when the vision in the chapters are timestamped.
chapter 17 - the vision is timestamped the first century.
chapter 12 - the vision timestamped as the 7 years are about to begin
chapter 13 - the vision timestampled as the last 42 months of the 7 years about to begin.
This makes the most sense and I think I would agree with you.
Nero seems to be the likely candidate of the 6th king.
It just seems to get a little foggy after that: the 7th king and then the 8th, which is also the beast. Plus the 10 kings who have no kingdoms....just doesn’t add up nicely, you know?
The six kings are of the 4th kingdom. The seventh king is end times, the leader of the 4th kingdom in the end times. Which seems to be the EU. The person is called the little horn in Daniel 7.
The same person after he is killed and brought back to life in Revelation 13, possessed by the "beast" persona in the bottomless pit at present, becomes the eighth king of the 4th kingdom.
It then becomes fairly simple to understand.
The person, as the little horn, becomes the 7th king of the 4th empire
The person, as the beast, possessed, becomes the 8th king of the 4th empire
But here is the complication that spins everyone out, just about. "the Antichrist" That term. The most misused, misunderstood, term in eschatology and secular world.
The Antichrist is the person only while he is the King of Israel, illegitimate. Most, generally all, people don't see it that way, for one thing it doesn't occur to them to see the person other the horrible, one world dictator, and his rise to power. Most people label the beast as the Antichrist - in error but not realizing it.
To understand that arch villian of the end times, it has to be understood that he goes through a series of progressions, making decision all along the way, that he ends up becoming the beast in Revelation 13. He ends up going through a series of roles. Being the Antichrist is just one of them.
The roles in sequence are....
First he become the leader of the EU, the littler horn, 7th king of the fourth kingdom,
Then he becomes the prince who shall come, following Gog/Magog,
Then he becomes the Antichrist, by being anointed the King of Israel, perceived messiah,
Then he commits the transgression of desolation, revealing himself as the man of sin, ending his time as the King of Israel, the Antichrist.... as the Jews reject him from continuing as their King.
Then he is killed and brought back to life, becoming the persona of the beast, possessed, and the 8th king of the fourth kingdom.
____________________________________________________________________________
So as you can see being the Antichrist is sandwiched between being the 7th king of the fourth empire and being the 8th king of the fourth empire.
Whether the person ever attests to his Julio-Claudian bloodline connection is not known. And it may be only by namesake he is referred to as Caesar, popularized by the press. We don't know.
________________________________________________________________________
Regarding the ten kings, the 7th and 8th kings being associated with the fourth kingdom, you might be interested in my post #73.
Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step.
You had written..."Nowhere in Scripture that God has defined beast as man."Yes and Paul also wrote:
1Co 15:32
[32] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Here, God defined the beast as the body of men with the spirit of antichrist. Not one "a" supernatural man.