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Who is responsible for our sanctification?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    I think they might be misunderstood and their views misrepresented... Unless I haven't seen the type of Christian you are referring too or I am misunderstanding what people are actually meaning.

    By their fruit you will know them. If someone has no fruit as a consequence of their faith and the Spirit working within there is a problem. James said so. Not many people argue that their works save them, if it is done apart from Christ it is tarnished and will be consumed by fire.

    What, to me, seems to be happening are people arguing upon party (doctrinal) lines. Divisions and strife occuring frequently which is not in keeping with the Spirit. It is refreshing when people discuss these subjects with humility, kindness and conviction. However, there seems to be much prejudice and people not willing to read what the others say, so in effect they misrepresent what each other are saying.

    I think what galls those who try to point out the importance of works (as a by product of faith) is the fact that so much of the Bible is being omitted. We are blessed to have a record of our Saviour's words and deeds from 2000 years ago. It would be good if the whole of it was acknowledged rather than each side arguing over verses and man's explanations.

    Other than reading it in context with the time and with scripture as a whole it doesn't need a whole lot of debate and the prideful 'I'm right you're wrong' fiasco that ensues. Scripture should point to Him and leave us humble, grateful and in awe or we are misusing it.

    I digressed. What balks is the idea that many will go to the judgement and hear the words 'I did not know you' because they had assurances that faith alone was enough, not realising that their faith was never real or had died long before. That they believed that God does it all, not realising that they had to walk with Him and turn from sin and self reliance. (There's no excuse, the Bible says it all and warns us, not only that the Spirit testifies to our hearts). That they remained in the world, interested in the things of the world instead of having the day to day relationship with the Father. Not understanding that His will, not ours and feeling that delight in His will being done. I actually go to a Church full of Calvinists and see Christians who walk in the Spirit there despite me disagreeing with the finer points of the theology. At the end of the day our understanding isn't the most important part. Proverbs 3:5-6
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Then why all the warnings about refraining from sin and telling believers to do good works if they have no choice in the matter? Paul is teaching that God works thru us but we must cooperate with His guidance from the Holy Spirit. Hence do not grieve the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You think that you can lose your salvation, though. So you staying saved must have something to do with you. So somewhere you are adding to faith.

    I’m not trying to be critical. You seem very polite, and I appreciate it.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I never said that there wasn’t a choice. You can either do things in the flesh, or in the Spirit.
     
  5. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Really?!!

    Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    No you just can’t interpret John 15 correctly without contradicting your beliefs. Not without doing a triple twist double backflip scriptural interpretation.
     
  6. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    I can only have what I am given. I wouldn't like to be prideful to think I obey because of me.

    I look back on my life and see how the Lord put things in place in my life to bring me to Him and I am not so conceited to think He doesn't do it for everyone. I've had a tough life (by western standards only) yet in it He made Himself known. When I was 5 I loved the songs about Him at school, I mysteriously had a bible which was my favourite book. My mum threw it out because I destroyed it reading it. Was that from me? No. I then had a couple of books which had a Christian sub plot given by neighbours, bought at jumble sales etc. Was that me, no.

    It is only been the last few years that I realised how the Lord raised me. He was there and gave me everything I needed when things got bad in order to keep my heart safe. He was and is my refuge.

    I don't think much of my faith even comes from me. He gave us ears to hear.

    He is amongst my very first memories. I used to imagine him playing with us from the clouds like we were toy soldiers and would daydream it while walking down the street with delight. A 4 year old child without Christian parents is unlikely to come up with that unless that interest was given to her.

    I have seen it in other small children. God gives us the desire for Him. I wonder if that is why people are always trying to fill a gap with things of the world. Originally, I only found peace when praying, drinking in His scripture or accidently doing His will. (I'm a Christian who doesn't hear His voice and only knows after when something must have been because of Him, or through scripture entering my mind when faced with an immediate decision. All I can do is live according to His word. I think I'm getting better at knowing now when I may have done what I should have though because of His Peace that resides within, it preceeds conscious thought and the realisation that I've been obedient. With that kind of leading it makes it easier to learn and follow)
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  7. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Actually, taken in context of the whole book, there’s no way it can mean what you think since Jesus loses none that are His, those given to Him by the Father. The Father loves us as much as He loves His Son. We are safe.
     
  8. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    This sounds like someone who understands where her faith comes from and where the fruit comes from, and it’s not from her. So I don’t see you you think you can lose your salvation.
     
  9. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    He did NOT say He loses none. He said it is The Father’s WILL (DESIRE) that I should lose none. Which goes along perfectly with 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 that God desires all to repent and be saved and that none should perish.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    So you think Jesus can’t be obedient to His Father’s will? That’s creating a division in the Godhead.
     
  11. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Because the Bible tells me so throughout. We have the assurance but with warnings and '...' (forgotten the word for urging someone to do something, it's 00:43am here).

    I rely on Him to keep me in Him and direct my paths but I still wander off down paths I shouldn't! I'm not yet perfected, or conformed to the image of Christ yet. I'm still being moulded. However, the Bible reassures me there too.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Do you see God as your Father?
     
  13. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Yes but also as the Lord God Almighty. Sovereign, Holy, Just, Truth. He is Perfect, deserving of all Honour, Glory and Praise.
    He is Protector and Provider and to be revered more than we often do. He is merciful and patient with loving-kindness to His creation.

    I love seeing Him as my Father but I love just as much the feeling of how He is all the other attributes.

    When we consider how small we are, like dust, flowers in the field that wither and die.. the fact that He cares for us and leads us even though our life is not even a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things points so much to His love, goodness, greatness and power. Yet even more remarkable is that He can do it at the same time within millions of His children throughout the world. He orders circumstances in many lives of others to interact to teach us something all the time. His Power is unfathomable to our minds. We are like a teeny grain of sand, yet He provides still! Jesus pointed to that a little when He spoke of Him knowing the hairs on our heads in fact.

    So yes, I see God as my Father but humbly with the sense of the rest of what I said too. Otherwise it is limiting His fullness and magnitude. Oh how it will be when free of this worldly life and stood in awe.
     
  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Of course Jesus is always obedient to His Father’s will according to The Father’s plan. God desires everyone to repent and be saved but obviously that is not His plan either. God has given us the free will to choose whether or not we will love Him so Jesus must work within these parameters in order to accomplish God’s plan. Without free will our love would be meaningless because it would not truly be from us. Without free will our love would be nothing more than us executing a predesignated program that God has created within us. Furthermore without free will I don’t even think we could be considered sentient beings.
     
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    We will do good works if we are truly saved, but not do those works thinking they save us or keep us saved or whatever either... and if you ever get that twisted, you fall back into a works based salvationism, and sin and evil again...

    James says that it is the evidence of our faith or the evidence that we are truly saved, but I think he would also say not that we should judge by that either, either in each other, or even in our own selves, cause we can be wrong, and are oftentimes, and a lot of time "wrong", when we try to do that, etc, and the very fact that we might try to do it, even in our hearts, could be wrong or very wrong or evil or sin also...

    The desire to do good and do good works and be good will be so strong that you will not be able to resist or not do it or them, again, not that we judge however...

    Cause God's judgments in those areas are usually very much more different from our a lot of the time, and for that reason, we should not... Especially not with 100% absolute certainty anyway...

    And like I said, the desire to do them, or be good or whatever, will be so very strong, that you will not be able to "not to" or not do them, you'll "feel it" so strongly if you are a truly born again believer with a right heart, that you will unable to resist (it)...

    God Bless!
     
  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    Good works are different from works of the Law, which cannot save and only feeds the flesh, and no truly saved person who has afterward fully embraced the true Gospel of Grace, will ever go back to works of the Law...

    God Bless!
     
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    Your desire to not sin, or work or operate in the flesh, or not harm or hurt yourself, others, or God, will also become "so strong" that you will not be able to not do it or be it, (as well)...

    You will obey from the heart and by having the right kind of heart, by the Holy Spirit that works upon the heart, when you are walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh... But works of the Law is totally against all these things, and incites or gives rise to walking in the flesh and concentrating on the things of the flesh, and will be walking in the flesh and not the Spirit, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Here's a Lutheran response,

    "For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves.

    Learn, then, to understand this article most clearly. If you are asked: What do you mean by the words: I believe in the Holy Ghost? you can answer: I believe that the Holy Ghost makes me holy, as His name implies. But whereby does He accomplish this, or what are His method and means to this end? Answer: By the Christian Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. For, in the first place, He has a peculiar congregation in the world, which is the mother that begets and bears every Christian through the Word of God, which He reveals and preaches, [and through which] He illumines and enkindles hearts, that they understand, accept it, cling to it, and persevere in it.
    " - Large Catechism, Section II, Article III, 38-42

    It is the Spirit who gives us faith, who unites us to Christ, keeps us in Christ, and therefore holds us in true faith, granting us sanctification from God through His gracious work.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Do you see how you shifted the discussion? We were talking about Jesus’ promises, and now you have to go back to man’s will.

    You’ve divided the Trinity, and you have done so by giving the implication that man’s will somehow trumps God’s will. If Jesus says that He will not lose any that the Father gives Him, that’s the truth. Man cannot thwart that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Bless you friend, if you consider James’ tone in James 2:14-26 he is urging these brethren to do good works. He is explaining to them the importance of doing good works. If works were automatically a result of faith there would be no need for this message. Furthermore John 15:2 would be an impossibility. The Father could not cut off every branch in Christ that doesn’t bear fruit if all branches who are in Christ cannot fail to bear fruit. A person could not fail to abide in Christ if they are incapable of resisting His influence. As Paul stated we are capable of grieving the Holy Spirit. Take for example Paul’s statement in Romans 12:1-2

    Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    How does this statement fit into the doctrines of total deprivity and irresistible grace? Paul is urging the brethren to conduct themselves in godly manner. Now if these brethren were not saved and still in their sinful nature they would be incapable of conducting themselves in a godly manner and according to what your saying, which is basically similar to irresistible grace, these brethren would be incapable of conducting themselves in an ungodly manner. Paul is indicating, as so many others do in the scriptures, that every Christian is capable of conducting themselves in an ungodly manner. Here’s another indication.

    “If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
    ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    Here Paul includes even himself as being capable of denying Christ resulting in Christ denying him. Now some will misinterpret this to say that if we are faithless Christ is faithful to save us but that is not what Paul is saying. We cannot receive salvation without faith. What Paul is saying is that Christ is faithful to do what He said He would do if we deny Him.

    “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:33‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    Now of course this means if we deny Him without repentance. Peter denied Christ 3 times and was not denied before The Father because he repented. Some will say that Peter never repented because the scriptures do not say so. But the scriptures actually do say so by his actions throughout his life afterwards. He devoted his life to serving God, bearing fruit, and loving others, even dying a martyr’s death.

    We have to think about the implications of the many passages of scripture that give warning to everyone about living an ungodly lifestyle which results in not entering the kingdom of heaven.

    When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


    Galatians 5:19-21


    Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


    Matthew 3:10

    This next verse is spoken to children of God who are undoubtedly saved according to Paul’s statements about them in Ephesians 2.

    Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


    Ephesians 5:3-6

    The faithful servant of the master is referring to a saved believer of Christ.

    A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    Matthew 24:45-51

    All of these verses are directed to believers. They cannot be directed to unbelievers because unbelievers will not enter heaven because of their unbelief. So even if they were capable of refraining from all these sins they would still not be capable of entering the kingdom of heaven because of their unbelief. These messages are for believers not unbelievers. The scriptures are full of warnings to believers. If irresistible grace were true then there would be no point of any warnings about how to conduct ourselves in the scriptures other than believe and have faith. These warnings would be warning believers of doing things that according to the doctrine of irresistible grace are impossible for them to do. We always have a choice.
     
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