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Featured Who is responsible for our sanctification?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And the principle is the same. Works were added.
     
  2. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Just as added works of loyalty perfected Abraham's faith .

    There is a difference though. Jews demanded justification, acceptance by God, based on circumcision. Paul pointed out acceptance, proved by the giving of the Spirit, did not come by works of the law but by loyal response.

    Galatians 3
    2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

    3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? 5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  3. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And you promote finishing in the flesh. I’ll stick with hearing by faith.
     
  4. stuart allen

    stuart allen New Member

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    here's my theology...

    i get to go to Heaven because Jesus went to The Cross

    belief in Him makes Him my Personal Savior, my Eldest Brother

    He becomes Kin to me and i to Him

    that makes His Father my Father and His Mother my Mother

    and everyone else who believes in Him my brother or sister

    so i'm adopted into The Family of God

    all of that is a free gift of Gods Grace

    now that i'm in The Family i'm in the family business... becoming, being and doing Good

    so i pray...and receive Graces during prayer

    i try to be kind and gentle...and if i mess up/make a mistake i say sorry to The Lord i Love

    doing Good?...that can be anything from a smile or a kind word to running an international ministry or international charity

    we all fit somewhere on that spectrum according to Gods Will/Plan for our life

    and all that too happens by Gods Grace

    i'm Catholic because i believe when Jesus said "This IS My Body" He meant it

    and because i don't want to ignore my Mom
     
  5. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Flesh is understood as works of the law.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Which, if you study Romans, is the moral law written on our heart. So anything added to belief in the Gospel is works of the flesh.

    Basically, it’s you trying to produce fruit instead of it being produced by the Vine.
     
  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Galatians 3
    2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit
    by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

    3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? 5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

    Not really, as mentioned, works of the law is contrasted with loyal response.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  8. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    No, it’s contrasted with faith. There’s no loyal response mentioned.
     
  9. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    But faith is incomplete without demonstration of loyalty as James teaches.
     
  10. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Well, since James doesn’t teach that, I’m not sure of your point.
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
    ‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-26‬ ‭NASB‬‬
     
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    There’s a difference between keeping the law for justification (righteousness) and keeping it out of love for God. In Galatians Paul is telling them if they could be justified with God By keeping the law then Christ died for nothing. This doesn’t mean that the law is abolished and we are free to live a sinful life and as long as we believe we will be saved.

    “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

    “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Thanks. That makes my point much clearer.

    Context, context, context.
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Seems to me that you are trying to counter an argument that I’ve not made. Have I ever said that we are free to sin?
     
  15. MDC

    MDC Well-Known Member

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    The very fact one holds to the doctrine that salvation and eternal life can be lost in Christ shows or gives proof that one believes keeping the law for justification. And by doing so they say Christ died for nothing. Grace is nowhere to be found in your doctrine of works righteousness. Christ guarantees no ones salvation according to this doctrine
     
  16. Wordkeeper

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    Why is the Exodus event quoted extensively both in the OT and the NT? Why is the text saying these things were written for our warning? Why does the text say that when we hear His voice today we should not be like those in the wilderness?

    It's one thing to even hear with faith, when there is no price to pay, and then choke, when we have to count the cost.

    The believers were being mocked by Paul in Galatians 2. For centuries, Jews had been prancing around with their incredibly detailed and sophisticated rituals (they asked for it and God gave it to them till it came out of their ears) and not even one faith building (that's what edifying means, something they needed when the crunch came) revelation was given. Then Peter preached the Gospel, a Man had layed down His life, and picked it up again, the greatest manifestation of God's amazing work, and on hearing with faith, loyalty, agreement, the Holy Spirit poured out things of heaven on a Gentile crowd!

    And after this, the Galatians wanted to go back to fringes and tassles? It shows that incredibly stupid people existed even back then.
     
  17. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Is loving thy God works? What about loving thy neighbour? These were things we were told to do by our Saviour.

    What about the grand commission?

    Paul, himself, tell us to be slaves to righteousness. Those who say we have not to do works as an outpouring of our faith remind me of the parable of the ten virgins. They remind me of the slave who put his master's talent in the ground. It reminds me of Galatians 2:10. [Edit: I meant ephesians 2:10 But Galatians 2:10 was an example of a duty so I'm leaving it there]

    I guess that because they have a grand view of election they do not need to feel the importance of being a witness of Christ through word and deed. I mean, why the urgency?

    I sometimes wonder if they think like this:Your not saved if your not in the elect. Therefore, you are going to be saved anyway whether people busy living as faithful servents, living sacrifices or not. Therefore, what people see in them doesn't matter.

    Well it does. Peter says we are to live lives without blemish in front of the gentler in order that God's name isn't sullied. I fear for the Christians who are so woefully misled and ignoring what Jesus told us to do. Why does Jesus promise (through the revelation of John) things to the churches if they persevere. It would not be classed as persevering if we had nothing to do at all in this. Also, rewarded? It wouldn't be a reward if we made no effort. Different words would be used. Gifted perhaps.

    But we do need to act. We have been redeemed, washed, clothed in Christ. We have been empowered with His Spirit to live holy lives. Jesus was the Son of God, eternally secure, yet on earth He worked for His Father's kingdom. He taught, healed, and demonstrated that we are to forsake wealth and worldly things and strive for Him. We are to pick up our cross and follow Him. He does not say our job is just to believe and sit back. He says follow! That is an active verb. No we don't do it to deserve forgiveness or righteousness. We do it because He loved us first and now, as recipients of that love, we are to love others as we walk with Him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  18. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Who is “they”?
     
  19. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Who is we? All of us are we.

    'They' are those who think we can get away with sitting back, content in our salvation/election (which is prideful), and think that as long as they believe that is enough. They are like the Virgins who sat back instead of having the oil. How can we be in Him if we do not love those around us? How can we be in Him if we are not spurred to action?

    However, that is such a short sighted view. The apostles had to endure hardship, in the OT Daniel, Abraham, Joshua, David, Esther, Nehemiah, Joseph, Elijah, Jonah, Elisha, Hosea, Moses etc.... the list is so so long ... Their faith all led to actions.
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster 2019 Dundie Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I agree with that.
     
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