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Who is responsible for our sanctification?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    My point was that we are still expected to obey not just believe.
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    What is the definition of justification? To be rendered or shown to be right with God. Just because a person is made right with God does not mean they can never be made wrong with Him afterwards.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’ve never said otherwise.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That’s a lie. A Father never abandons his son. And the Father loves us with the exact same love He has for His Son.
     
  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    If they can be made wrong with Him afterwards supposedly, then they were never truly made right with Him to begin with. and the error comes in and with us and our thinking we can tell or judge or know for sure, either in and with ourselves and/or especially with others, or in others cases.

    And about the former that i just said, do you not think that God can see a persons end from their beginning? and that if they were or are not His in the end, then they were never one of His or were ever right with Him to begin with? those who are truly His in the beginning or in the end(ing) cannot ever become not one of His after they are truly one of His.

    Obedience does not earn you better or more right standing with God, or Salvation either. And/or and because if you see it that way at all, you are already not being obedient, but are being disobedient and not obedient from the heart, because you are not having the right kind of heart to begin with, which is being disobedient. Or not being truly obedient to the true Gospel of Grace apart from works or works of law, which and/or because the latter is disobedience to the True Gospel of Grace.

    You will sin in your judging and/or condemning, and judgments and judging in and from your heart, etc, and even if you don't voice it, you will be being disobedient in your thoughts and from the/your heart, if your following after the wrong Gospel.

    Works, or works of law and the Gospel of Grace cannot co-exist together ever, nor can they be "mixed" either, it's one or the other and you must choose and do it in and from your heart.

    True obedience is in having the right kind of heart, and if you do not have the right kind of heart, then you are still stuck in the/your sin and disobedience. And pure works based "whatever" does not ever, never, nor can it ever give you the right kind of heart, or ever produce a person that is ever truly obedient from his or her heart, ever.

    God Bless!
     
  6. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    What do you mean by “true obedience is in having the right kind of heart”? What kind of heart are you referring to?
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    One that does not automatically judge or automatically condemn others outright or from the onset, even from within, all the time, for starters... (and beyond that not even a heart that judges it's own self either)...

    Which is what works based, or works of the law, or any works of any kind of laws based Salvationism systems or ways (that you have to keep or obey or do "to be saved"), causes one to do, nigh automatically from within, etc... Which never ever produces true righteousness, or true right standing with God, or true obedience, ect...

    It (the former) is in direct opposition to the Gospel of Grace, and they, or it (the former), always will be because of this "effect" it has on the heart that I describe or am trying to describe...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  8. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    Galatians 3:21-22
     
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    The Law is our tutor leading to Christ, who, once there, are not having any more need of being under a tutor anymore...

    And the Law is for the Lawless and (still as of yet or before that) ungodly, and is our/their tutor leading to Christ and the Gospel of Grace, etc, etc... Who, after that, etc... Are no longer of any need of being under a tutor anymore, unless they are still yet lawless and ungodly in their hearts, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Where have I judged or condemned anyone?
     
  11. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Yes but you already know that I know that He is at work in us from my posts and I've been quoting from memory, the exact wording may have been incorrect.

    I was just amused at how people can't dismiss the first half of the verse either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  12. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Almost everyone does in their heart, and law and works based systems create and provoke and promote it to the point to where the only way to get rid of it or cause it to stop or not happen is to change it/that or the or that system completely.
     
  13. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    However, have you noticed that when at peace in Him we feel compassion, even for those who want to destroy us? (I'm not exaggerating. When having prayed and spent time in His words, our thoughts become more right and we feel nothing but compassion and love for people who would go to extreme lengths to physically, mentally or emotionally injure us. We end up wanting them to repent rather than face eternal punishment and the struggles on this earth through living in a twisted state of heart.) Given this, it is hard to judge and condemn when we are walking in the Spirit. We still discern but it is His discernment instead which leads to compassion for the sinner and also warns us.

    When feeling thoughts of judgement and strife it is a clear sign that our eyes and hearts are looking on ourselves and the world rather than Him. So, we all can do it but it is easily remedied.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I don’t believe that is true at all and is solely based on assumption. Some people will judge and condemn others in every denomination.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Also I never said anything about law or works based salvation. The wages of sin is death not works or obedience to the law. No amount of works can pay for even 1 single sin and no one is capable of flawlessly keeping the law. So many people don’t understand that God does have expectations of His children. He expects us to be merciful, kind, loving, compassionate, and forgiving. A person can believe in Christ all they want but if they don’t possess these qualities they will not enter heaven. Paul said if I have faith to move mountain but I have not love I am nothing. In Matthew 25 the goats are condemned because they did not have love for others. They were self serving. James gives a similar example in James 2:14-16 as well as John 15:1-14 expresses a similar message. As far as eternal security there are two ways to view this concept. If your looking at it from the book of life perspective then yes salvation cannot be lost because the book of life will not be edited, however a person could have been on the path to being written in the book of life but failed to stay the course and as a result God foresaw his falling away and didn’t write his name in the book. Had that person abided in Christ and endured to the end he would’ve received salvation and been written in the book of life. But he was condemned by his own choices. Some will say such a person was never saved but the Bible gives examples that those who are saved can lose their salvation. John 15:1-10 and Romans 11:17-23. The Bible also gives many warnings to children of God that they must refrain from sin and continue in the faith in order to receive salvation. Ephesians 5:1-6, Romans 6:16, Colossians 1:21-23.
     
  16. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    If what he believes is true then it would be impossible for anyone to fail to abide in Christ as Jesus warned His 11 faithful apostles of doing in John 15.
     
  17. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    I haven't met a Christian who thinks that works save them, that I know of anyway. I have met plenty of people who think they are Christians because they think they believe in God or were baptised as a baby, but don't care about sin, never go to church, read a Bible and don't pray. Which is sad. Not that those save of course -it is part of being in Him, part of the body, wanting to talk to the Lord, relying on Him, resting in Him.

    I've spoken to non-Christians who have seem to think that we do good works for that reason, I think they get that idea from TV where a priest says to do something to make up for their wrong, rather than repentance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I don’t dismiss it. I understand what’s it’s saying. Paul is telling that God is working in us. So whatever good we do, it is Him working through us.
     
  19. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    That’s isn’t what He warned them about. He already showed them to be secure in many places in the first 15 chapters.
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    There are many that believe that they must have works to stay saved. They balk or reject that we are justified by faith alone.
     
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