Who is my neighbor?

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GirdYourLoins

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You're an egotist and I guess we all have to like it or leave it.
With his posts I tend to leave it. I really dont see the point of asking the most basic questions on Christian doctrine and when someone answers just saying "yes, thats right".
 
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GirdYourLoins

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Matthew chapter 10 verse 29
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
Im not sure what you are trying to say. A few cryptic comments obviously trying to get a rise out of people doesnt really add to the debate. Please explain what you mean.
 
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victorinus

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In fighting to give a voice to the powerless, why do people on the Left have such little regard for the most powerless among us, the unborn?
great thread - thanks for starting it -
the feminists control the democratic party - their liberty depends on being able to kill their unborn baby
 
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DamianWarS

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You have the characters switched in the story. The baby is the one lying in the ditch, and the "mother" is the thug who put it there. Christ did not instruct us, in that hypothetical, to show mercy to the person who robbed and beat the man. You're concerned with the perpetrator, while leaving the victim in a pool of blood.

Also, we should not try to make the parable go where it was never intending to go. It seeks to instruct regarding the *who* question; however, a look at the actual law of Christ and we understand that the command is to *love* neighbor as self. It is not loving to leave someone in his sin. It is not loving to allow a baby to be murdered, if you have the opportunity and ability to prevent it. Even if you don't, to speak of such an act as aborting a pregnancy with a yawn could not be more unloving. Indifference is the antithesis of love.

if the characters were switched it would be the baby that is the perpetrator and the mother the victim which I did not say. I said that both are the victim and we should show mercy to both. You know as well as I do how a pregnant mother can be a victim so let's not pretend you don't understand the position.

I also don't think the parable is being stretch to where it was never intended and if so then I think you need to abandon it for the issue of abortion all together. In the parable there is an undeserving victim so can you think of another account where Jesus shows mercy to a deserving victim? Perhaps the woman found guilty of adultery, how did Jesus show mercy to her? How about the woman at the well actively involved in a sinful relationship, how did Jesus show mercy to her? Did those accounts involved Jesus "slapping" anyone in the face as your suggest is the appropriate action?

I certainly am not an advocate for abortion but we need find a place where we are compassionate toward people and their imperfections without compromising truth. This is the mercy that promotes restoration and this is the mercy we need to be engaged in.
 
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Godlovesmetwo

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You know as well as I do how a pregnant mother can be a victim so let's not pretend
Selective hearing loss I'm afraid. The only victim they hear and see is the unborn. Game over.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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we need find a place where we are compassionate toward people and their imperfections

Since you refer to the act of killing a baby as an "imperfection" , we have nothing further to discuss.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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great thread - thanks for starting it -
the feminists control the democratic party - their liberty depends on being able to kill their unborn baby

I guess that is one possible explanation for this ongoing holocaust.

Abortion seems to be the central platform of modern-day Feminism. During marches in DC against the Trump presidency, at least one women's group was told that there were not welcome (by feminists) because the group was "pro-life". In other words, these feminists would refuse you entry into their club if you disapprove of killing your own children.

 
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victorinus

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During marches in DC against the Trump presidency, at least one women's group was told that there were not welcome (by feminists) because the group was "pro-life".
I have seen reports of one or two pro-life democratic candidates for congress and they are getting a lot of grief
 
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DamianWarS

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Since you refer to the act of killing a baby as an "imperfection" , we have nothing further to discuss.

You seem to approach this as a very black and white issue and refuse to accept anything else. It's your OP so why start a conversation if you not willing to discuss it?
 
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disciple1

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Im not sure what you are trying to say. A few cryptic comments obviously trying to get a rise out of people doesnt really add to the debate. Please explain what you mean.
Your trying to come in when the conversation is over so here's some of it.
1 Corinthians chapter 4 verse 6
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

We don't know if abortion is right or wrong, it might be the same as birth control, there's enough people to help in the world, theirs people without clean water, theirs all kinds of people to help.
And since you brought it up what about the child molesters in church theirs a lot of them, why not help children that are already born.

Human life begins at conception

Where's that verse in the bible

Matthew chapter 11 verse 30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Ask any women who's given birth to a child if it's easy, like Jesus said here.

No your just making things up with the other liars, and hypocrites.

You haven't quoted a single verse, just a lot of foolishness.

Matthew chapter 23 verse 4
They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

None of you have quoted a single verse, I guess your fools who like to hear themselves talk.


Matthew chapter 10 verse 29
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
 
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SPF

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Matthew chapter 11 verse 30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Ask any women who's given birth to a child if it's easy, like Jesus said here.

No your just making things up with the other liars, and hypocrites.

You haven't quoted a single verse, just a lot of foolishness.
Disciple, I'm confused. If I asked you to explain to me the second law of thermodynamics, would you do so from Scripture? If I asked you to utilize the Pythagorean Theorem, would you do so using Scripture? If I asked you to explain to me how aspirin thins my blood, would you do so using Scripture? If I asked you to explain the rules of baseball to me, would you do so using Scripture? If I asked you to explain to me the composition of uranium, would you do so using Scripture?

The question to when human life begins is easily answered from a medical and scientific standpoint. We don't need Scripture to supply the answer.

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University ofPennsylvania, stated:“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life…. I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He said: “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School:“It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School:“The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.

Bottom line is that medically we know a new human life comes into existence at conception.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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You seem to approach this as a very black and white issue and refuse to accept anything else. It's your OP so why start a conversation if you not willing to discuss it?

There are two parties involved. One is completely innocent, the other is not. In choose between the two. I must choose the baby. I will not side with the guilty over the innocent, or the perpetrator over the victim.

Leaving out rape victims, a large portion of women get abortions because they were promiscuous, and don't want to live with the consequences of their actions. The vast majority of abortions are sought because of the "inconvenience" of having and caring for a child. These are the people that I am addressing in the OP. To discuss fringes is to ignore the issue before us. To refer to a person who would sacrifice a child for the sake of convenience, "imperfect" leaves us too far apart to have a discussion on the particular matter, and likely many more, as well.

I understand that many of these women and girls did stupid things that got them into their predicament. I understand, as I've done more stupid things than most. But, *I* did the stupid, and sinful things. Unless there is personal responsibility taken, there can be no forgiveness (true mercy) from God, as Christ did die for people who make mistakes. He died for sinners.

The OP asks why the political Left (which in general is "pro-choice") because of its defense and promotion of abortion, has left us with millions of dead babies, when its platform is one of defense the weak. That's the question I still have no answer for.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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In fighting to give a voice to the powerless, why do people on the Left have such little regard for the most powerless among us, the unborn? It boggles the mind that this is not a "Progressive" issue.

May we face judgement and claim these babies are not our neighbors? If we are aware of their plight, are we not guilty for not doing all we can to protect them from harm?
One could equally bemoan how the people on the right seek to take away the freedom of the woman to determine her own destiny. It boggles the mind how this is not a "conservative" issue.

And it gets down to whether or not developing fetus is a person . . . yet.

It is difficult to justify this in the case of a single cell. It is far easier to assert this in the case where the developing fetus, if delivered, could breath and feed on its own, and cry to make its needs known.

Failure to acknowledge these are different cases is the first fundamental problem in this debate.
 
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SPF

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It is difficult to justify this in the case of a single cell. It is far easier to assert this in the case where the developing fetus, if delivered, could breath and feed on its own, and cry to make its needs known.

Failure to acknowledge these are different cases is the first fundamental problem in this debate.
You actually have it backwards. One of the first fundamental mistakes that people make in this debate is assuming that the moral worth and value of a human being is dependent upon either it's age, location, or mental development.

Do you possess more inherent moral value than a 40 year old with down-syndrome? Does a 10 year old possess more inherent moral worth than a 10 month old?

You seem to be a professing Baptist, do you not believe that Scripture teaches that all humans are created in the image of God and that all humans possess inherent moral worth and value as part of possessing the Imago Dei?

We know medically that a new human life is formed at conception. Why exactly would we want to suggest that not all humans are equally morally valuable? And then the dangerous thing of course, is if we decide to determine that not all humans are morally valuable, on what authority do we have to draw that line between humans with moral worth and value and humans without moral worth and value? Does God do that? If not, then surely we shouldn't.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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You actually have it backwards. One of the first fundamental mistakes that people make in this debate is assuming that the moral worth and value of a human being is dependent upon either it's age, location, or mental development.

Do you possess more inherent moral value than a 40 year old with down-syndrome? Does a 10 year old possess more inherent moral worth than a 10 month old?

You seem to be a professing Baptist, do you not believe that Scripture teaches that all humans are created in the image of God and that all humans possess inherent moral worth and value as part of possessing the Imago Dei?

We know medically that a new human life is formed at conception. Why exactly would we want to suggest that not all humans are equally morally valuable? And then the dangerous thing of course, is if we decide to determine that not all humans are morally valuable, on what authority do we have to draw that line between humans with moral worth and value and humans without moral worth and value? Does God do that? If not, then surely we shouldn't.

Its a perfectly reasonable assertion to claim that personhood comes with the presence of a brain capable of expressing that personhood, and before such a brain exists, there is no real personhood there, yet. That seems, to me, to be something that we "know medically". You can of course disagree, but you have not presented any arguments that change my mind on the subject.
 
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SPF

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Its a perfectly reasonable assertion to claim that personhood comes with the presence of a brain capable of expressing that personhood, and before such a brain exists, there is no real personhood there, yet.
The problem with this is that you're getting ahead of yourself and you're begging the question. There are a whole host of assumptions that you've made by asserting that there is actually a difference between a human being and a human person.

As Christians, the foundation of our moral and ethical system comes from what we understand to be taught from Scripture as well as principles derived from what we know of the character of God. The reason we can say that action X is morally wrong is because we can point to an authority outside of us that determine what is right and wrong.

For those that attempt to create a distinction within humanity that consists of human beings and human persons do so in an attempt to distinguish between humans that possess moral worth and value and human beings that do not possess moral worth and value.

The problem is that I don't see a case for creating this distinction from what we ethically know from Scripture. The burden of proof lies with you, the one making the claim that there is a distinction between a human being and a human person and that only human persons possess moral value.

From what I can discern, the only reason that we actually attempt to make this distinction is so that we can perform some action against the human non-person that we would otherwise consider immoral.

So my first question to you would be this - Honestly, why do you feel that we should make a distinction between a human being and a human person? And then secondly, on what objective foundation are you able to build this position on? Because from what I see, there are a whole host of answers on where we should draw the line: first trimester, second trimester, viability, ability to feel pain, pre-birth - all of these lines are necessarily subjective, how are we to know which one God recognizes as the real line?
 
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SolomonVII

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There is nothing to laugh at here. No material for jokes. . .

Do you know that by CF rules I can't post pictures of aborted babies here? Don't you think it odd that I can't, if this practice is nothing more than a removal of some tissue? I can't post pictures because they are babies. They are human beings that their own mothers consent to have "doctors" tear limb from limb. Seeing them can lead to no other conclusion, so we kill them in the darkness of the womb. We dare not look upon this in the cold light of day.
There is a lot about CF that is antichrist. This shows up most prominently in the way that pro-life has been fettered by the powers that be here.
I was censured at one point for having an image of an unborn baby in my signature, along with a pro-life commentary. Moderators kept urging me to defend myself or they will take it down. My own thought was take it down if you must, and live with the consequences of your own hardened hearts.
 
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SolomonVII

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Where's that verse in the bible, sperm is alive, eggs are alive, what if a man were going to touch should he rape a women so he doesn't kill the sperm.
I am only aware of the Catholic position in that human life is inherently sacred from the moment of conception to its natural end.

I regard the Bible as a Catholic book which supports the Catholic position.
If there are other Christian positions that regard all sperm as sacred, then they are welcome to defend that position Biblically or any other ways they cane.
But it is the position of no Christian that I know of.
Which denomination were you referring to with those questions?
 
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disciple1

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Disciple, I'm confused. If I asked you to explain to me the second law of thermodynamics, would you do so from Scripture? If I asked you to utilize the Pythagorean Theorem, would you do so using Scripture? If I asked you to explain to me how aspirin thins my blood, would you do so using Scripture? If I asked you to explain the rules of baseball to me, would you do so using Scripture? If I asked you to explain to me the composition of uranium, would you do so using Scripture?

The question to when human life begins is easily answered from a medical and scientific standpoint. We don't need Scripture to supply the answer.

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University ofPennsylvania, stated:“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life…. I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He said: “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School:“It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School:“The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.

Bottom line is that medically we know a new human life comes into existence at conception.
The question to when human life begins is easily answered from a medical and scientific standpoint. We don't need Scripture to supply the answer.
I guess Christian is used loosely here on Christian forums.
1 Corinthians chapter 4 verse 6
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
 
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