Is it Ever OK to Lie? Is It a Question Involving Priorities?

[BNR32FAN]

Again, there is no demonstrated fact that the midwives lied. Only what they said may appear to be impossible in your eyes. Perhaps God did speed up the births allowing the women to hide their children. We don't know. But speculating or worse, claiming they lied is not backed by scripture so I ask you to reconsider.

Peace and Blessings

”But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live.“
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭1‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Exodus 1:17 specifically says that they did not do as he commanded and they let the boys live.

 

[TPop]

Jesus taught the difference between the letter of the law and the purpose of the law. He didn’t condemn people for pulling fallen animals out of a well on the sabbath. He didn’t condemn David’s actions of going into the temple and eating the bread that was forbidden for anyone to eat except for the Levites. His focus was mercy and compassion, not the letter of the law which is why He defined the purpose of the law which was to love God and to love others. That’s why Rahab was blessed despite her lie because it was crucial to saving the Israelite spies and the midwives who lied to Pharaoh about not killing newborn boys were also blessed. These lies were not malicious in nature they were compassionate and merciful.

And now you are heading towards claiming the Midwives were blessed for lying. Very dangerous territory is not an outright untruth. Please, they were blessed. But not for lying.

Peace and Blessings

 

[TPop]

”But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live.“
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭1‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Exodus 1:17 specifically says that they did not do as he commanded and they let the boys live.

Please read some commentaries. Go to BlueLetterBible.com and look up the verse. Then click on the verse in bold. Then look at the tab for commentaries. Read them. You will not find anyone stating the midwives lied. To say that they lied is speculation and that is very dangerous.

Peace and Blessings

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is incorrect. Jesus taught that the Pharisees and Sadducees??? and other leaders had added to the law and made it against the law to do all sorts of things when none of that was true.

Rahab did not turn them in immediately. She was softening towards Jesus. That is the starting point, at least, of where she is recognized by God.

Peace and Blessings

Jesus posed a problem to the Pharisees that they gave offerings to God instead of to their own parents and by doing so they broke the commandment to honor their mother and father. The case of Rahab is similar because she was either going to have to break the commandment love thy neighbor or lie. Sometimes we might be faced with situations where we have to choose between breaking one of God’s commandments regardless of which choice we make. Let’s say one of your parents tells you to lie or steal. Your going to have to choose to honor their request or lie or steal, any choice you make is going to break one of God’s commandments.

 

[John G.]

While habitual lying is something to be avoided, let's not forget Jeremiah promised King Zedekiah he would lie... and he did. (Jer. 38:24 - 27)
I think the motive behind the lie is the determining factor as to whether a lie is a sin or not.
Lie about the condition of a car you're selling and you've committed a sin.
Lie as to the whereabouts of your neighbour, when two thugs with guns want to know, and you've saved a life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please read some commentaries. Go to BlueLetterBible.com and look up the verse. Then click on the verse in bold. Then look at the tab for commentaries. Read them. You will not find anyone stating the midwives lied. To say that they lied is speculation and that is very dangerous.

Peace and Blessings

I don’t read commentaries, there are commentaries for every heresy ever created.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Yes. It is always a sin. It is a lack of trust in God. We need to look to God and pray and expect good things.

I am not trying to be nonchalant about this or act like seeing someone taken away is not horrible or that I would not sin. But I will not call it other than a sin, just because I want to keep it in my back pocket for when I fail to look to and trust God.

Things only 'appear' as life or death. We don't know it is.

[2Ki 6:15-18 KJV] 15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? 16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that [be] with us [are] more than they that [be] with them. 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain [was] full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. 18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

Jesus does not love Elisha anymore than he loves us.

Peace and Blessings

True, you have a very valid point that i didnt think of. But is it really a lack of trust in God to preserve the life of God's holy people? Like, let's say for a moment that they should have said yes and been willing to die, this still wouldn't have preserved the life of God's chosen people. Many of the people who hid Jews from the Nazis during WWII were Christians who lied not really to protect their life, they probably were willing to die to Protect the Jewish people but more because of after their sacrifice, more of God's people would die. It was to try to prevent the Nazis from completely exterminating the Jewish people. While many Jews don't believe in Jesus there still were some that do and were chosen by God and the entire Jewish population when Christ returns will believe in God. While it may have been sin not to say yes if they didn't, the Jewish people would not be here and God's plan would have failed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Perhaps most what people read everyday here is fertile ground for promoting errors without end ?

I think more people need to study the scriptures for themselves instead of having others tell them what the scriptures say.

 

[TPop]

Jesus posed a problem to the Pharisees that they gave offerings to God instead of to their own parents and by doing so they broke the commandment to honor their mother and father. The case of Rahab is similar because she was either going to have to break the commandment love thy neighbor or lie. Sometimes we might be faced with situations where we have to choose between breaking one of God’s commandments regardless of which choice we make. Let’s say one of your parents tells you to lie or steal. Your going to have to choose to honor their request or lie or steal, any choice you make is going to break one of God’s commandments.

I am sorry. God Never puts us in a position where we have to sin.
Period.
I am sorry you feel this is not true.
So you have to be allowed to sin.
You will never be blessed by sinning. No one is. Ever.


Peace and Blessings

 

[TPop]

While habitual lying is something to be avoided, let's not forget Jeremiah promised King Zedekiah he would lie... and he did. (Jer. 38:24 - 27)
I think the motive behind the lie is the determining factor as to whether a lie is a sin or not.
Lie about the condition of a car you're selling and you've committed a sin.
Lie as to the whereabouts of your neighbour, when two thugs with guns want to know, and you've saved a life.

a. Let no one know of these words: Mindful of his own interests, Zedekiah did not want anyone else to know what the LORD told him through Jeremiah. Perhaps he did not want the blame for the catastrophe of misery and destruction that his disobedience would bring.

i. “Even the preview of what he is bringing on his family (Jeremiah 38:23) fails to pull the king together. Like a child, he is only scared for having his secret talk found out. His parting words – virtually, ‘Don’t tell on me!’ – show that God’s latest and last call to turn back from the brink (Jeremiah 38:20ff.) has not even registered with him.” (Kidner)

b. He told them according to all the words that the king had commanded: When the princes of Judah asked Jeremiah about his conversation with the king, Jeremiah did as the king asked. He did not reveal what God said to Zedekiah, apparently believing that it was between the king and God.

i. “This was telling the truth, and nothing but the truth, but not the whole truth. The king did not wish him to defile his conscience, nor did he propose any thing that was not consistent with the truth.” (Clarke)

c. Jeremiah remained in the court of the prison until the day that Jerusalem was taken: Jeremiah was taken back to the courtyard of the guard and remained in custody until Jerusalem was conquered, just as he prophesied.

i. Jeremiah went back to the prison; Zedekiah went to the palace. It would turn out better for the prophet than for the king. “Zedekiah returned to the palace to suffer the anguish of knowing what was right to do but lacking the courage to do it.” (Thompson)

Peace and Blessings

 

[TPop]

I don’t read commentaries, there are commentaries for every heresy ever created.

That is a pretty gigantic blanket statement and not a bit super negative.

Perhaps if you had said, 'I have some concerns with commentaries and who writes them...'. Perhaps you are not very careful in your speech or writing. Regadless, you have cut off whole swaths of bible believing quality men and their wisdom. Matthews, Spurgen, Guizak, Thompson, to name some excellent ones.

You stand alone in your wisdom. Shallow ground that. I'll leave you to it. I have no desire to debate over your personal feelings. I do my best to avoid my actions dictating my feelings. I prefer my actions to dictate my feelings. And my actions are fed by scripture and quality-approved bible teachers.

You have a nice day.

Peace and Blessings.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am sorry. God Never puts us in a position where we have to sin.
Period.
I am sorry you feel this is not true.
So you have to be allowed to sin.
You will never be blessed by sinning. No one is. Ever.


Peace and Blessings

I agree God never puts us in a position to sin, ever. It’s the world and the people in it that do that. So you think Rahab should’ve told the truth to the guards? Or do you think she shouldn’t have answered the question?

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is a pretty gigantic blanket statement and not a bit super negative.

Perhaps if you had said, 'I have some concerns with commentaries and who writes them...'. Perhaps you are not very careful in your speech or writing. Regadless, you have cut off whole swaths of bible believing quality men and their wisdom. Matthews, Spurgen, Guizak, Thompson, to name some excellent ones.

You stand alone in your wisdom. Shallow ground that. I'll leave you to it. I have no desire to debate over your personal feelings. I do my best to avoid my actions dictating my feelings. I prefer my actions to dictate my feelings. And my actions are fed by scripture and quality-approved bible teachers.

You have a nice day.

Peace and Blessings.

My statement in no way implied that all commentators teach heresies, the point I was trying to convey was that just because someone gives a commentary doesn’t mean it’s an accurate interpretation. I think one of the biggest problem I see here on CF is that too many people rely on commentaries because of their own lack of knowledge about God’s word. What makes a popular commentator’s interpretation any better than anyone else’s? Is it their level of study of the scriptures? I prefer to reach that level of study myself because I learned a long time ago that if your relying on someone else to explain to you what the scriptures actually teach, your gonna get a lot of different answers from a lot of different people which leaves you still having to choose blindly on which one to believe since you aren’t able to make your own assertions.

 

[Peacemaker1]

You should change your profile name, it’s deceiving.

Why didn’t you post James 2:25?

”In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?“
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭25‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How would this have played out if she had not lied to the Canaanite guards?

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 LIE NOT ONE TO ANOTHER, SEEING THAT YE HAVE PUT OFF THE OLD MAN WITH HIS DEEDS;
10 And have PUT ON THE NEW MAN, which is RENEWED IN KNOWLEDGE AFTER THE IMAGE OF HIM THAT CREATED HIM
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things PUT IN CHARITY, which is THE BOND OF PERFECTNESS.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Why is lying a sin?

”“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22‬:‭36‬-‭40‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Lying is a sin when it is done deceitfully but when it is done out of compassion and mercy it isn’t. When it’s done to save the life of another it isn’t a sin.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Like an example for people arguing for this point is when thr Naxis invaded many Households where people were hiding Jews and they had a conundrum. If they said "Yes" to hiding Jews and told the truth, they and the Jew/Jews they were hiding would die. If they said "No" they would be lying yet it would preserve life. This is kind of a Grey area for me.

While it's true that the Bible teaches that lying is a sin and that people should be willing to die for their faith it doesn't have a response about this frequently stated conundrum. It would be impossible for it to talk about this direct situation because WWII began in the 1940s but it doesnt say whether or not it's ok to lie to preserve human life. You can't deny that lying is a sin but is it ALWAYS a sin is the question.

Did what the nazis did, change the faith of the Jews, NO, did what the resisters to the same nazis did, change the belief of the Jews, NO.

All men are liars, God is true, and the testimony of God saves, the testimony of man destroys.



Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Let’s not forget about the midwives who lied to Pharaoh in order to save newborn boys. And what was God’s reaction to that lie?

”So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and let the boys live?” The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them.” So God was good to the midwives, and the people multiplied, and became very mighty. Because the midwives feared God, He established households for them.“
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬-‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Exodus 1:19-21 The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them.” So God was good to the midwives, and th | New American Standard Bible - NA

The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them.” So God was good to the midwives, and th

bible.com

Yes lets remember all, that is useful that I am here isn't it.

See how Jesus did not come to condemn but to save, and God had compassion on the midwives, and here has compassion on the woman taken in adultery, but she had done wrong and had to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

You may ask, how does the woman in adultery, the midwives, and everybody ( Rahab included) sin no more ? It is exampled in the same way, how Jesus went to prepare mansions for all, ( in heaven) o go so He can receive us again to Himself.



John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Jesus taught the difference between the letter of the law and the purpose of the law. He didn’t condemn people for pulling fallen animals out of a well on the sabbath. He didn’t condemn David’s actions of going into the temple and eating the bread that was forbidden for anyone to eat except for the Levites. His focus was mercy and compassion, not the letter of the law which is why He defined the purpose of the law which was to love God and to love others. That’s why Rahab was blessed despite her lie because it was crucial to saving the Israelite spies and the midwives who lied to Pharaoh about not killing newborn boys were also blessed. These lies were not malicious in nature they were compassionate and merciful.

You cant use scripture as if it is convenience food, and not be willing to show the INGREDIENTS.

Jesus wanted us to go and read what happened with David, to see what is right, not what is wrong.

Jesus shows He is greater than the temple, which the Jews were honouring, and again in John, about the sabbath the Jews so dearly honour, but that they were wrong to be against Christ, as they FAILED to judge RIGHTEOUSLY, they judged by appearance instead.



Matthew 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


In order to do what was right, the priest was willing to help but had a requirement, David confirmed the requirement, and how the men's vessels were holy, and how the bread should still be able to be had by the men, as it was bread.




1 Samuel 21:4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.

1 Samuel 21:5 And David answered the priest, and said unto him, Of a truth women have been kept from us about these three days, since I came out, and the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in a manner common, yea, though it were sanctified this day in the vessel.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Protecting them, exactly. That was the “works” referred to in James 2. She couldn’t have done that without lying. The guards specifically asked her where they were. If she didn’t answer they would’ve searched the place and found them. The only option to protect them was to lie.

Rahab lied, does that show lying to be the correct path, no, because that would be in denial of Jesus Christ being better than Solomon/David/Rahab.


Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

 

[Peacemaker1]

I agree God never puts us in a position to sin, ever. It’s the world and the people in it that do that. So you think Rahab should’ve told the truth to the guards? Or do you think she shouldn’t have answered the question?

Rahab did what Rahab could do, what do you think anyone can do without receiving the Holy Spirit by belief in the righteousness of Jesus Christ rising from the dead..


John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.




The flaw in your words is that Rahab had no Spirit of truth, so how can one tell the truth without it...


John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.