Is it Ever OK to Lie? Is It a Question Involving Priorities?

[Peacemaker1]

I will give you an example - a lady thinks she’s in hospital and thinks she’s going home in the morning. She is happy knowing this, she is settled. She will forget by the morning anyway. Would you tell her that she is there to stay forever? Which will cause her to get angry and upset. Or just go along with what she believes about her going home in the morning? Bearing in mind that she will forget this by the morning and won’t ask about it.

your example is not scripture, which is convenient on a Christian scripture forum.

why not ask about scripture, seeing it is theology of Christian scriptures ?

Jesus comes to cure us, of all sicknesses, and if we do not get HIs cure, we live happily, not knowing the sickness of our soul, and this way is comforting to people, but they are being murdered.

or, we try to believe in Jesus Christ, and seek the cure He gives, which is not by believing in any lie, it is by trusting in God more than in ourselves, and stop playing Go and deciding the judgement of everybody's soul around us.



Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Peacemaker1]

these people are trying to establish a lie to justify speaking against Christ, but their own reasoning can never replace the truth, nor darkness better than light.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Lets have more honesty people, in a thread you are trying to state lying is approved by God.

The testimony about Rahab is that the people had heard about Egypt, the red sea parting, other kings destroyed, and how it was understood God of heaven and earth was freeing and guarding Israels Hebrews.

The Hebrews were themselves spies ( deceptive) but were trying to survive, against others trying to kill them. ( the time of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth)

The Hebrews believed in the same God as Rahab had began to believe in, as they were the ones who went through the red sea.

All who followed with Israel came to disaster, because anything not straight was not acceptable with God, Moses for example tried to cover up the murder he had done, and David had to lie to survive, but none of them are the way to eternal life.

Even Abraham was told it is from his seed that life will come, as it comes from no other, and all others killed, or did something that was not perfect.



Joshua 2:4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:

Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the Lord hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.




King David did lie, even murder, and the Jews in Judaism cant see they need Jesus Christ, to be a better way than lie, and covet and murder.


1 Samuel 21:13 And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.


1 Samuel 29:3 Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?




Another example of what was done was by Phinehas, who killed people to stop the plague of God. GOd approved, but that does not mean this act continues to be approved of.



Numbers 25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.




Jesus teaches the truth, and the truth says we heard of an eye for an eye, and we even heard of what Rahab did, what David did, what Phinehas did, but now we were told to be holy, harmless, and to no longer fear what man shall do to us. ( no place for hiding any more)

Do we acknowledge that Jesus Christ did the opposite way to Rahab and David, hiding to survive, and Jesus Christ testifies He spoke always openly to the world, and in secret said nothing.

Did Jesus have to hide to not be captured, or they could not take Him before HIs time, and they had to conclude it was because of how Jesus spoke, why thy could not take Him ?

Can any of the disputers admit that Jesus never had to lie, so why do they say Rahab lied and so it makes lying OK< even though they claim to be following Jesus Christ. ( but are they not lying ?)



Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 7:44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.
45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

John 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Rahab lied, king David, Moses covered up what he had done, and according to the thread makers, this makes lying OK, even though it is posted in Christian scriptures theology forum.

Does that theology smell a bit off, or what ?

Here is the plain answer, or question to these same peeps, ( they are not worth anything further) do they think they have an instance to show Jesus Christ doing as Rahab, or king David, or as Moses did, to not be completely 100 percent honest, or that is too plain to even them, hat they have created a thread just for dispute, and nothing at all to do with Christian scriptures, nor of following Jesus Christ.

 

[Peacemaker1]

David killed, even murdered, and feigned ( lied) about who he was.it is not an example to follow, even though Christ comes from the fruit of Davids flesh, because David needed Christ to not see corruption, as David saw corruption....



Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.



Abraham I mentioned, who even had the promise of life from his seed told to him by God, but that was the fulfilment of the promise by Jesus Christ, Abraham has no promise to give to anyone, just like David, this was from his seed...



Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.



Moses I mentioned also, who covered up this:


Exodus 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.




Remember also that Jesus has comparison to Moses..


Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.




Abraham, king David, Moses, these are more important for the faith than Rahab, more important teaching and examples, and all three killed people, and by the understanding of these people who say that what Rahab did ( to lie and who knows what else) that is the way they approve of.

Abraham, David, Moses, that example of killing had to not be any more, here is how that is...



Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.


Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 

[Peacemaker1]

If these same happy disputers wish to dispute on, fine, they agree with lying, when it makes sense, the only problem is, they cant make it sense any more, or are denying Jesus Christ ended what Rahab did, what Abraham did. ( killing the kings and paying tithes to Melchizedek)) or Moses to not be Christ over HIs own house, or David who payed dear for his discrepancies.

If it is not this thread, they will create many others to do the same purpose, pretend to be speaking about God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You won’t answer my question because you know that if Rahab had made any other choice other than lying, the Israelite spies would’ve been caught and killed. It doesn’t make much sense to hide someone if your planning to tell their murderers where they’re hiding or if your going to refuse to answer questioning which will result in automatically revealing their hiding place. So go ahead and run and hide behind the scriptures as if that’s what Paul was writing to Timothy about. I bet you that neither Paul nor Timothy would’ve avoided the question I asked.

 

[BNR32FAN]

David killed, even murdered, and feigned ( lied) about who he was.it is not an example to follow, even though Christ comes from the fruit of Davids flesh, because David needed Christ to not see corruption, as David saw corruption....



Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.



Abraham I mentioned, who even had the promise of life from his seed told to him by God, but that was the fulfilment of the promise by Jesus Christ, Abraham has no promise to give to anyone, just like David, this was from his seed...



Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.



Moses I mentioned also, who covered up this:


Exodus 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.




Remember also that Jesus has comparison to Moses..


Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.




Abraham, king David, Moses, these are more important for the faith than Rahab, more important teaching and examples, and all three killed people, and by the understanding of these people who say that what Rahab did ( to lie and who knows what else) that is the way they approve of.

Abraham, David, Moses, that example of killing had to not be any more, here is how that is...



Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.


Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

God never commanded anyone not to kill. What He commanded was not to murder which is the unlawful killing of another person. The only unlawful murder David was guilty of was the death of Uriah. Moses wasn’t guilty of murder because he killed the Egyptian who was beating one of his brethren.

Jesus told Peter to put away his sword because the plan from before creation was that Jesus was going to be arrested and crucified.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Jews in Judaism believe Rahab to be better than Jesus Christ, that, that way is the truth for them, anyone who follows the path other than Jesus Christ is a thief and a robber.

Who cares what the Jews believe about Rahab and Christ? It has nothing to do with the discussion. It was James who said that Rahab was justified by her works.

By your reasoning, to speak about lying as if it is right, Rahab and David and Solomon, John the baptist, Peter James John, they would not need Jesus Christ to baptise us, to forgive our sins dying for us, to make the new man/creature in Him, which casts off lies, and also follows Jesus Christ in what He testified, to do all perfectly as He did with the Holy Spirit given.

There’s not a shred of truth to this at all because everyone sins and they’re not very often the result of having no choice but to choose between breaking one of God’s commandments. Rahab was faced with a choice, protect the innocent or tell a lie. Did she make the right choice or not?

”Deliver those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back. If you say, “See, we did not know this,” Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?“
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭24‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly And show partiality to the wicked? Selah. Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭82‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?“
‭‭Micah‬ ‭6‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.“
‭‭James‬ ‭4‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

your example is not scripture, which is convenient on a Christian scripture forum.

why not ask about scripture, seeing it is theology of Christian scriptures ?

Jesus comes to cure us, of all sicknesses, and if we do not get HIs cure, we live happily, not knowing the sickness of our soul, and this way is comforting to people, but they are being murdered.

or, we try to believe in Jesus Christ, and seek the cure He gives, which is not by believing in any lie, it is by trusting in God more than in ourselves, and stop playing Go and deciding the judgement of everybody's soul around us.



Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Her example isn’t scripture? Remind me again what are the two most important commandments?

 

[BNR32FAN]

these people are trying to establish a lie to justify speaking against Christ, but their own reasoning can never replace the truth, nor darkness better than light.

Who is speaking against Christ? You seem to focus on one partIcular commandment and ignore the bigger picture of what Christ taught which was love and compassion for others. You completely ignore this aspect of His teachings in this subject.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Lets have more honesty people, in a thread you are trying to state lying is approved by God.

Nope, no one is saying that at all, you’re not taking into consideration the entire context of the discussion. No one is saying that lying is acceptable. What we are saying is that in some situations lying can be the lesser of two evils. Throughout the discussion people have been presenting real life situations where we may have to make a choice between lying and showing love and compassion for our neighbor. In your posts you seem to be completely void of any compassion and love when it comes to this partIcular subject.

 

[Peacemaker1]

if we follow the examples of rahab, then we agree that not telling the truth is always the best.

but we are not following this example, we are following the way of Christ, and you cant comfort people by giving them what they need to hear in this life, you comfort them by telling them how Jesus sought no lesser of two evils, He did not agree to the things of men to not lay HIs life down as Peter suggested, He instead gave HIs life.

that is the difference between this threads examples of rahab, who did not let the spies die, Jesus has the very opposite way ( it is of God and is God) to also show us the way, which is to also lay our lives down, and not try to hide to save our life as rahab did to save the lives of the spies.

there is no lesser of two evils in the new testament, that is just heresey and blasphemy on this thread.


here is how to lay our lives down, or we can save them, and lose them AS JESUS TESTIFIED..




Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

 

[Peacemaker1]

brnfan, I wont look at or be in debate with any of your disputes.


you cant show rahab to be right, that is old news.

Jesus Christ is the only right, and there is no example in this deceptive thread for anything at all to do with lying, in the new test, to show lying as the lesser of two evils.

you are finished with nothing to say