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Featured Who Is Jesus?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by dreadnought, Sep 22, 2017.

  1. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    To further illustrate -- I asked you about John 17:5 (at that time it was for the purpose of trying to establish that Jesus was not the Father because Jesus spoke to the Father.) However, let's use it again.

    "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

    Read that again. Jesus said that He shared glory with the Father before the world was. That means that Jesus and the Father both existed together before the world was created. That places both Jesus and the Father at Genesis 1.

    We have two Persons who are both eternal, and who shared in the same glory. Since we have already established that God was alone in the first 26 verses of Genesis, this strongly suggests that we have at least two Persons who are both the one true God. They are the same God and the same Being, but they are not each other.

    You get the same thing when you read John 1:1-3.
     
  2. Jenniferdiana

    Jenniferdiana Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus is special.
     
  3. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    Because that's just how God exists. He is different from any other Being in the universe. That's just how God has revealed Himself. That's where Scripture leads.

    C.S. Lewis apparently explained it this way -- say you're a one dimensional shape and you live in flatland -- all you see is in 2 dimensions. Then, say you are taken to a 3-D world and shown what a cube looks like -- you'd see it in a different way then you ever would have in your 2-D world.
     
  4. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    If you are alone, you might talk to yourself. That doesn't mean there are two persons in you.

    In John 1:1-3, you might interpret "Word" as Jesus, or you might interpret "Word" as "The Message." And it was Jesus (God in flesh) who brought that message to earth and made it known.
     
  5. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    You are describing this:

    "The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from trinus, "threefold") holds that God is three consubstantial persons or hypostases—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons"." Wikipedia
     
  6. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    I think we can all agree with that.
     
  7. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    When the Lord speaks to me, I only hear one voice. I pray to him, not to them.

    Maybe it isn't important. Matthew 4:17 might be worth contemplating.
     
  8. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    Here is a verse in the Bible about communing with our own hearts. God could have been communing with his own heart in Genesis 1:26, as opposed to communing with another person or being:

    Be angry, but sin not;
    commune with your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Psalm 4:4 RSV
     
  9. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    First of all, there are two Persons who are God. One of them is the Word. The word "with" directly implies this. The Word was both With God and was also God. One Deity, yet at least two Persons.

    It also shows that He Creator along with the Father. Pair this up with Colossians 1:15, and you will see a parallel. We'll look at this in a bit.

    John 1:11-12 says:
    He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

    Verse 14 is essential for understanding this whole passage:
    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Verse 17:
    For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

    The context of John 1 implies Jesus, especially if we look at Colossians 1:15-17 (NASB)
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
     
  10. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Yes, that is what I'm attempting to do.

    The problem is that people here have different ideas of what the word "trinity" means, so I've been trying not to use that word much.
     
  11. THE W

    THE W AFRIKANB0T

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    The eternally existing creator of all things.
     
  12. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    Same for me. I pray to one God. I worship one God.

    It's getting late. I'm going to bed for the night. I'll pick this up tomorrow. Have a good night, and see you tomorrow.

    We've had some good, thoughtful discussion so far. Let's keep that up :)
     
  13. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    No, I think the Word is the message. Remember when Jesus said all else will pass away, but his words will remain forever?
     
  14. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    I've enjoyed the conversation. Monday is my busy day, but hopefully we can continue this.
     
  15. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    If not Monday, then another day. :)
     
  16. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. Matt 24:35 RSV
     
  17. breathofdesire

    breathofdesire New Member

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    Well Jesus is not in heaven in his body now, since flesh and bone do not inherit the kingdom of God.

    So where is his body?
     
  18. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I don't know Greek. However, I have heard that the word that John uses that has been translated as "Word" in most English translations is the Greek word "Logos."

    My study Bible states, and I have heard this elsewhere, that "Logos," was a concept that the Greeks understood. They had a specific meaning for "Logos." The Jewish people also had a specific meaning for the word "Logos." The Greek and Jewish understanding of "Logos" were not identical, but both understood the concept to mean something more than just a message. It was a term that both people could relate to.

    Yes, I remember that Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away, but that His words would remain. I don't know that that would be the same Greek word "Logos," used there. I am going to ask someone who has studied a bit of Greek for their opinion.

    Mark 13:31 is one instance.
    Luke 21:33 is another.
    Matthew 24:35 is another.

    I'm going to ask someone who knows Greek to look at the Greek used in those verses to let me know what Greek word is used for "words" there. I really doubt it will be Logos, but we will see.

    At any rate, it seems from the context of John 1 that the Word is a Person, not a message. Look at how John 1 coincides with this:

    Colossians 1:15-17: (NASB)
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    Do you think that Colossians 1:15-17 is about the message as well?
     
  19. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so my friend who knows a little Greek wrote this to me when I asked him to translate Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, and Matthew 24:35:

    So, he told me that it definitely should be translated as "words" there.

    He said this of John 1:1 when I asked him if it was Logos in John 1:
    So...apparently what is in Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, and Matthew 24:35 is the plural version of the same word as in John 1:1, which is singular in that instance.

    So, according to him, it should definitely be Word in John 1, and words in the other passages. Although they are different versions of the same word, the singular and plural versions are definitely different, and each should definitely be rendered as it appears in our English translations.

    He also showed me the whole translation for John 1:1:
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  20. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    Let's look at some of these verses that you posted in support of your belief that Jesus is the Father.
    I have no problem with Matthew 1:23 in my viewpoint. Since I believe that both the Father and Jesus are the one true God, YHWH, then I completely agree with Matthew 1:23. Jesus is YHWH, so He truly is God with us.

    John 14:9 is a bit more tricky. This is a verse that those who hold to your position often quote. If we just stop with the verse you quoted, it does seem that a case can be made for your viewpoint that Jesus is the Father, and that the Father is Jesus. (In the same way that you acknowledge that a case can be made for two Persons when Jesus prays to the Father.)

    However, if you read the surrounding verses in context (from John 14:7-15), it seems that Jesus' statement is more one of complete unity with the Father, rather stating that He is the Father.

    Look at John 14:10-11: (NASB)
    "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

    Jesus isn't saying He IS the Father, or that the Father IS Him, although I can see how a person could interpret it that way. Again, He seems to be more talking about His unity/oneness with the Father. That's how I view John 14:9. I will say, though, that this passage is the strongest one there is in the Bible for your position.

    I say that this passage shows that the Father and Jesus are so united and linked because they are both the one God, YHWH. They are the same Being but two different Persons within that one Being.

    I'm going to make a whole new post to discuss your final verse because I have more to say on that particular one.
     
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