Who Is Jesus?

[dreadnought]

Okay, then this is a major point of disagreement. I am getting to the point here with these questions. This is what I needed to know, and this helps to tell me why you believe that Jesus is the Father.

Do you think there could be possibly more than one person who is YHWH, the one and only God? This is the major question.

There appear to be more than one Person who is YHWH in some Scriptures...such as what appears to be going on here in Zecharaiah 12:10 (NASB):
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.


I have no idea. Maybe it was something that we selected when we joined the forums. Of the many choices to pick from for religion, "Methodist" and "United Methodist" were probably listed separately.

My version (Revised Standard Version) says it differently:

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born. Zech 12:10 RSV

But let’s go with your version. I don’t want to read everything that leads up to this verse, but a quick glance suggests to me he is taking about the House of David.

 

[dreadnought]

Another would be Genesis 1:26-27 (NASB)
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

I do not know who God was talking to, but I don't think he was talking to anyone equal to him.

 

[dreadnought]

Another one is Isaiah 6:8 (NASB)
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I answered, "Here am I. Send me!"

It would seem to me the Lord is talking to people that had lived out their lives on earth and passed on to the resurrection.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

My version (Revised Standard Version) says it differently:

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born. Zech 12:10 RSV

But let’s go with your version. I don’t want to read everything that leads up to this verse, but a quick glance suggests to me he is taking about the House of David.

I don't know Hebrew, so I'm not sure what the Hebrew says there. It is possible that the editors of the RSV "corrected" the English to make it flow better, and to make the pronouns all match.

I have heard the interpretation that you gave (as talking about the house of David). That is a valid interpretation. However, the NT itself applies it directly to Jesus.

John 19:37 (NASB)
And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I do not know who God was talking to, but I don't think he was talking to anyone equal to him.

Could He have been talking within Himself? One Person talking to another Person?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

It would seem to me the Lord is talking to people that had lived out their lives on earth and passed on to the resurrection.

Isaiah is in the OT, so no resurrection had taken place yet.

This was all in a vision that Isaiah had of heaven. Angels were attending God. While, I suppose there could be dead believers there, there is no mention of them in the text. WE have God and we have angels and we have Isaiah.

 

[dreadnought]

I don't know Hebrew, so I'm not sure what the Hebrew says there. It is possible that the editors of the RSV "corrected" the English to make it flow better, and to make the pronouns all match.

I have heard the interpretation that you gave (as talking about the house of David). That is a valid interpretation. However, the NT itself applies it directly to Jesus.

John 19:37 (NASB)
And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

Perhaps, if "Me" is the correct pronoun in Zechariah 12:10, he is referring to his people, the house of David.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

The point of all this is to ask you if there is a possibility that there can be a plurality within YHWH -- more than one Person who is YHWH (God).

Please note that there would still be one God. YHWH would still be the one and only God in the universe.

 

[dreadnought]

Could He have been talking within Himself? One Person talking to another Person?

Fascinating. I had never considered the possibility that he was talking to himself, but in the previous 25 chapters, he seems to be talking to himself - no one else is mentioned.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Fascinating. I had never considered the possibility that he was talking to himself, but in the previous 25 chapters, he seems to be talking to himself - no one else is mentioned.

Exactly.

 

[dreadnought]

Isaiah is in the OT, so no resurrection had taken place yet.

This was all in a vision that Isaiah had of heaven. Angels were attending God. While, I suppose there could be dead believers there, there is no mention of them in the text. WE have God and we have angels and we have Isaiah.

But we have another definition problem: Resurrection.

Most people think heaven is where we go when we die, but I believe you will learn heaven is not a place. Heaven is what happens to us when we repent of our sin. The place we go when we die, I believe, is the resurrection.

By the time Isaiah walked the earth, many people had died. Unless God held them in suspended animation until Jesus died, they were already in the resurrection.

 

[dreadnought]

The point of all this is to ask you if there is a possibility that there can be a plurality within YHWH -- more than one Person who is YHWH (God).

Please note that there would still be one God. YHWH would still be the one and only God in the universe.

For me, it boils down to this: I pray to one being, and only one being. There cannot be a plurality. And I believe in him and trust him, and he leads me, provides life for me, and solves all my problems for me.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

But we have another definition problem: Resurrection.

Most people think heaven is where we go when we die, but I believe you will learn heaven is not a place. Heaven is what happens to us when we repent of our sin. The place we go when we die, I believe, is the resurrection.

By the time Isaiah walked the earth, many people had died. Unless God held them in suspended animation until Jesus died, they were already in the resurrection.

Okay, we disagree about what "the resurrection," is.

As I understand it, the resurrection is a concept which started with the Jews (Jesus made reference to it in John 11) that when the Messiah would come, there would be the resurrection of the dead. All those who were faithful would be resurrected. They would receive a resurrected body. Paul makes reference to it in 1 Corinthians 15, and says that Jesus was the first to experience the resurrection.

The Jews did have a name for a holding place of those who had died. It's Sheol according to the concordance in my study Bible.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

For me, it boils down to this: I pray to one being, and only one being. There cannot be a plurality. And I believe in him and trust him, and he leads me, provides life for me, and solves all my problems for me.

When I ask about whether or not there can be a plurality within YHWH, I'm not talking about more than one Being. YHWH is the one Being.

It seems, then, that we are not going to be able to reach an agreement on this. I'll go on with your previous post that I said we'd get back to, and see if we can discuss that.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes, I believe Jesus is our Father in flesh.

It was not my intention to state that the Father and Jesus are two different persons. I simply acknowledge I think a case can be made for it. I think a better case can be made that they ARE the same person. Here are three examples:

Ok, now that I understand your views on YHWH -- in order for us to have a discussion, we'll have to understand that we are seeing YHWH differently.

To you, YHWH can only be one Person and one Being.

In my understanding, YHWH can be more than one Person, but still one Being.

As such, I cannot agree with the statement that Jesus is our Father in the flesh. I can, however fully say that Jesus is YHWH in flesh.

Can you understand why I make the distinction, and why I can say that I believe Jesus is YHWH in flesh? But that I cannot say that Jesus is the Father in the flesh?

Let's establish this before I look at your verses and tell you how I interpret them.

 

[dreadnought]

Ok, now that I understand your views on YHWH -- in order for us to have a discussion, we'll have to understand that we are seeing YHWH differently.

To you, YHWH can only be one Person and one Being.

In my understanding, YHWH can be more than one Person, but still one Being.

As such, I cannot agree with the statement that Jesus is our Father in the flesh. I can, however fully say that Jesus is YHWH in flesh.

Can you understand why I make the distinction, and why I can say that I believe Jesus is YHWH in flesh? But that I cannot say that Jesus is the Father in the flesh?

Let's establish this before I look at your verses and tell you how I interpret them.

Well, I can only see two possibilities. Either YHWH (who I usually call God or Father, and sometimes Jesus) is one "person," or he is "three people." However, you seem to be telling me that he is neither. I am waiting for you to explain who God is.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

But we have another definition problem: Resurrection.

Most people think heaven is where we go when we die, but I believe you will learn heaven is not a place. Heaven is what happens to us when we repent of our sin. The place we go when we die, I believe, is the resurrection.

By the time Isaiah walked the earth, many people had died. Unless God held them in suspended animation until Jesus died, they were already in the resurrection.

Jesus told us the kingdom is within us, cannot be found by observation. Our bodies are a tent of flesh to house our spirit and soul...temple of God not made with human hands. We are born separated from God because of what happened in the garden with Adam and the woman's change of eyesight. Christ is the door back to the Father and the garden. Spiritually we are not able to 'see' until we become blind to the world/earth realm that we might see the mystery hidden being revealed, "Christ in you the hope of glory." Which has to do with perception or where we are perceiving from as in the question God asked Adam, "Where art thou?" And what Jesus said in John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

God is a spirit...we are spirit, but it is our soul that leads us away from God until our spirit is awakened and we become aware of who we are, a son (no gender implied) individually and collectively (body of Christ) and the Father, son and holy spirit are ONE. We must lose our soul to find it again IN the son. Born again. Resurrected from sin = death. Spirit = eternal life. Eternal means without end or beginning, not when our tent of flesh body physically dies...

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Well, I can only see two possibilities. Either YHWH (who I usually call God or Father, and sometimes Jesus) is one "person," or he is "three people." However, you seem to be telling me that he is neither. I am waiting for you to explain who God is.

How am I telling you that YHWH is neither?

To be very clear, I am advocating that YHWH is three Persons in one Being.

Sorry if I did not clarify -- I believe that YHWH is the one and only God in the universe.

So, who is God? YHWH. With this in mind.

The Father is YHWH (God).
Jesus is YHWH (God).
The Holy Spirit is YHWH (God).

That is what I believe. One God in three Persons. One Being who is triune.

Please let me know if there is a way I can clarify it more. I'm trying to be as clear as I can, but if you have a question about what I mean, please ask.

 

[dreadnought]

Jesus told us the kingdom is within us, cannot be found by observation. Our bodies are a tent of flesh to house our spirit and soul...temple of God not made with human hands. We are born separated from God because of what happened in the garden with Adam and the woman's change of eyesight. Christ is the door back to the Father and the garden. Spiritually we are not able to 'see' until we become blind to the world/earth realm that we might see the mystery hidden being revealed, "Christ in you the hope of glory." Which has to do with perception or where we are perceiving from as in the question God asked Adam, "Where art thou?" And what Jesus said in John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

God is a spirit...we are spirit, but it is our soul that leads us away from God until our spirit is awakened and we become aware of who we are, a son (no gender implied) individually and collectively (body of Christ) and the Father, son and holy spirit are ONE. We must lose our soul to find it again IN the son. Born again. Resurrected from sin = death. Spirit = eternal life. Eternal means without end or beginning, not when our tent of flesh body physically dies...

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

 

[dreadnought]

How am I telling you that YHWH is neither?

To be very clear, I am advocating that YHWH is three Persons in one Being.

Sorry if I did not clarify -- I believe that YHWH is the one and only God in the universe.

So, who is God? YHWH. With this in mind.

The Father is YHWH (God).
Jesus is YHWH (God).
The Holy Spirit is YHWH (God).

That is what I believe. One God in three Persons. One Being who is triune.

Please let me know if there is a way I can clarify it more. I'm trying to be as clear as I can, but if you have a question about what I mean, please ask.

How can you be three persons in one being?