Who Is Jesus?

[dreadnought]

Sorry...sure.....

Okay -- so, since you believe that Jesus is the Father, when Jesus was praying, He was praying just as an example to us?

But that doesn't really explain John 17. Look at the way that Jesus was praying there. For full context, read all of John 17.

Let's just look at John 17:5
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

How do you explain that verse?

This verse suggests that Jesus is NOT the Father. The Father and Jesus are different Persons. I don't see how all this could be explained away as simply Jesus giving us an example of prayer.

We'll talk about Jesus' baptism later. I just want you to address how you understand John 17, especially John 17:5.

Thanks.

The fact that Jesus spoke to the Father at all suggests that they are two different people. Still, I believe it was done for our benefit. I cannot explain everything, but I don't think anybody else can, either. Maybe I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have difficulty believing God is more than one being.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

but this body aka Son was made Lord and christ hebrews 1:2 and filled with the Fullness of the Godhead

which is how it's of God becuase God was within the Son.

Making the Son the Body of God

Wait...so are you saying that you think God is just within the Son, but that the Son is not God Himself? (To eliminate confusion, when I say God here, I am not referring to the Father. I am using the term to mean the Deity.)

I don't know if you mean the Father when you are saying God or not.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

basically yeah, wasn't sure if I could just straight up say it many don't immediately grasp the concept but yeah you got it fast enough.

I know what it means. I was just checking to see if I was understanding what you were saying.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Wait...so are you saying that you think God is just within the Son, but that the Son is not God Himself? (To eliminate confusion, when I say God here, I am not referring to the Father. I am using the term to mean the Deity.)

I don't know if you mean the Father when you are saying God or not.

I am basically saying that God was manifest in flesh as a son or human being.

manifest as the son of Mary


To me God is the same God that was in the OT though...so sure the Father is included.

But right now i'm simply saying God was manifest in flesh i'm just addressing the OP which ask is JESUS God or not in my statement.

Sure I believe that God includes the father...but that's not what I was referring to in my comment becuase the OP wasn't specific in that regard. Just asked if JESUS was God or not.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

The fact that Jesus spoke to the Father at all suggests that they are two different people. Still, I believe it was done for our benefit. I cannot explain everything, but I don't think anybody else can, either. Maybe I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have difficulty believing God is more than one being.

Okay, then I think part of the problem is the language used to express your beliefs.

It sounds like you agree, then, that Jesus is not the Father because He spoke to the Father. Good. We are in agreement there. That's all I was trying to do with this was to show you that Jesus and the Father are two different Persons. (In other words, that Jesus is NOT the Father, and that the Father is NOT Jesus.)

I'm not asking you to believe that God is more than one being. All I was asking you to see was that the Father and Jesus are not the same Person. There is a difference.

Now that we have defined terms and understanding on this, I think we are actually in agreement now.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

I am basically saying that God was manifest in flesh as a son or human being.

manifest as the son of Mary


To me God is the same God that was in the OT though...so sure the Father is included.

But right now i'm simply saying God was manifest in flesh i'm just addressing the OP which ask is JESUS God or not in my statement.

Sure I believe that God includes the father...but that's not what I was referring to in my comment becuase the OP wasn't specific in that regard. Just asked if JESUS was God or not.

Gotcha. It seems like you and I are in agreement about this as well, then.

 

[dreadnought]

Okay, then I think part of the problem is the language used to express your beliefs.

It sounds like you agree, then, that Jesus is not the Father because He spoke to the Father. Good. We are in agreement there. That's all I was trying to do with this was to show you that Jesus and the Father are two different Persons. (In other words, that Jesus is NOT the Father, and that the Father is NOT Jesus.)

I'm not asking you to believe that God is more than one being. All I was asking you to see was that the Father and Jesus are not the same Person. There is a difference.

Now that we have defined terms and understanding on this, I think we are actually in agreement now.

No, I still believe Jesus is God in flesh.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

No, I still believe Jesus is God in flesh.

Okay, if you think that we still differ --

What do you mean when you say "I still believe Jesus is God in the flesh."

Specifically, what do you mean by "God?"

Do you believe that Jesus is the Father in flesh?

Or do you mean something else?

And what did you mean when you said that you acknowledge that the Father and Jesus are two different persons?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Okay, then I think part of the problem is the language used to express your beliefs.

It sounds like you agree, then, that Jesus is not the Father because He spoke to the Father. Good. We are in agreement there. That's all I was trying to do with this was to show you that Jesus and the Father are two different Persons. (In other words, that Jesus is NOT the Father, and that the Father is NOT Jesus.)

I'm not asking you to believe that God is more than one being. All I was asking you to see was that the Father and Jesus are not the same Person. There is a difference.

Now that we have defined terms and understanding on this, I think we are actually in agreement now.

What is the difference between being and person though?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

What is the difference between being and person though?

Without going into all the language of the creeds (which is honestly above my knowledge), what I can tell you is how I understand the difference.

With Being, I am thinking of the Deity -- God. To say that there is more than one Being would be to say that there is more than one god.

The Persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is clearly portrayed as having Personhood in the Bible, and these are clearly not each other.

We can have more than one Person, and still have one Being (God.)

We could have more than one Person, and have more than one Being, which would be more than one God, and would amount to tritheism.

Does that help? I'm sorry that I'm not good at explaining this difference. It makes sense in my head, but I don't know who it is coming across to other people.

The Being I am thinking of here would be YHWH, the God of the OT.

The Persons are of course the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Without going into all the language of the creeds (which is honestly above my knowledge), what I can tell you is how I understand the difference.

With Being, I am thinking of the Deity -- God. To say that there is more than one Being would be to say that there is more than one god.

The Persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is clearly portrayed as having Personhood in the Bible, and these are clearly not each other.

We can have more than one Person, and still have one Being (God.)

We could have more than one Person, and have more than one Being, which would be more than one God, and would amount to tritheism.

Does that help? I'm sorry that I'm not good at explaining this difference. It makes sense in my head, but I don't know who it is coming across to other people.

The Being I am thinking of here would be YHWH, the God of the OT.

The Persons are of course the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

no it helped I get what you're referring to now referring to the Trinity.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

no it helped I get what you're referring to now referring to the Trinity.

Ok. Cool. I think it's extremely important to check where each other is coming from and what we're saying so that we understand each other with this topic.

 

[dreadnought]

Okay, if you think that we still differ --

What do you mean when you say "I still believe Jesus is God in the flesh."

Specifically, what do you mean by "God?"

Do you believe that Jesus is the Father in flesh?

Or do you mean something else?

And what did you mean when you said that you acknowledge that the Father and Jesus are two different persons?

For me this is an extremely long post, but you asked several questions.

I believe God decided to come to earth as a human being, so he did so as Jesus Christ.

When I speak of God, I mean our Creator and the Ruler of the world. God is motivated entirely by love and is all-knowing and all-powerful. He is the God of Abraham. Jesus addressed him as Father.

Yes, I believe Jesus is our Father in flesh.

It was not my intention to state that the Father and Jesus are two different persons. I simply acknowledge I think a case can be made for it. I think a better case can be made that they ARE the same person. Here are three examples:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and his name shall be called Emmanuel"
(which means, God with us). Matt 1:23 RS

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? John 14:9 RSV

I and the Father are one. John 10:30 RSV

 

[Baby Cottontail]

For me this is an extremely long post, but you asked several questions.

Okay. Awesome. This is what a discussion is all about. Yes, I did ask several questions. Thanks for your detailed answers. I'm going to break up your post a little so that I can respond to each part, and you can see exactly what I am responding to.

I believe God decided to come to earth as a human being, so he did so as Jesus Christ.

When I speak of God, I mean our Creator and the Ruler of the world. God is motivated entirely by love and is all-knowing and all-powerful. He is the God of Abraham. Jesus addressed him as Father.

I agree with you on this -- but I probably understand it differently from how you are exactly meaning it. I also think that if we talk about this a bit, you and I might be able to come to an agreement, but it's going to mean seeing things from a slightly different perspective.

In order to explain why I agree with you, we need to start somewhere...so

To begin, and because I don't know what you already know, how do you understand LORD when you see it written in the Old Testament?

I'll give you an example:
Isaiah 45:18 (NASB)
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Yes, this definitely has to do with our discussion.

We'll talk more about your previous post in a bit. I want to make sure that we discuss this part first.

 

[dreadnought]

Okay. Awesome. This is what a discussion is all about. Yes, I did ask several questions. Thanks for your detailed answers. I'm going to break up your post a little so that I can respond to each part, and you can see exactly what I am responding to.


I agree with you on this -- but I probably understand it differently from how you are exactly meaning it. I also think that if we talk about this a bit, you and I might be able to come to an agreement, but it's going to mean seeing things from a slightly different perspective.

In order to explain why I agree with you, we need to start somewhere...so

To begin, and because I don't know what you already know, how do you understand LORD when you see it written in the Old Testament?

I'll give you an example:
Isaiah 45:18 (NASB)
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited.)

Yes, this definitely has to do with our discussion.

We'll talk more about your previous post in a bit. I want to make sure that we discuss this part first.

You ask how I understand the use of the word "LORD" (capitalized) as it is used in the Old Testament. I can only answer by saying that I have read this (paraphrased):

In the original text, the Lord's name was used, but it was believed improper at a later time to use the Lord's name, so they substituted "LORD."

 

[Baby Cottontail]

You ask how I understand the use of the word "LORD" (capitalized) as it is used in the Old Testament. I can only answer by saying that I have read this (paraphrased):

In the original text, the Lord's name was used, but it was believed improper at a later time to use the Lord's name, so they substituted "LORD."

Right. That is what I'm getting at. So, in the original, it is the Lord's name, YHWH that is used here.

And that is true every single place that the translations that we are using have "LORD," like that in the OT.

So..we can substitute back YHWH every time that we see it in the OT. This is helpful for our discussion.

Now, some people think that YHWH = the Father, so they've built that into their theology. I do not think that YHWH is only the Father.

I do believe that the Father is YHWH, though.

Do you see the difference?

Do you follow so far?

Or do you think that YHWH is only the Father?

 

[dreadnought]

Right. That is what I'm getting at. So, in the original, it is the Lord's name, YHWH that is used here.

And that is true every single place that the translations that we are using have "LORD," like that in the OT.

So..we can substitute back YHWH every time that we see it in the OT. This is helpful for our discussion.

Now, some people think that YHWH = the Father, so they've built that into their theology. I do not think that YHWH is only the Father.

I do believe that the Father is YHWH, though.

Do you see the difference?

Do you follow so far?

Or do you think that YHWH is only the Father?

Semantics can be a problem. You get to the point that you feel you have to define every word you use, and then you have to define every word of every definition.

You ask, "Or do you think that YHWH is only the Father?" Yes, I do, but now I have to define Father. I believe Father is God.

By the way, I am United Methodist, like you, so why does your profile call you "United Methodist," and mine calls me "Methodist"?

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Semantics can be a problem. You get to the point that you feel you have to define every word you use, and then you have to define every word of every definition.

You ask, "Or do you think that YHWH is only the Father?" Yes, I do, but now I have to define Father. I believe Father is God.

Okay, then this is a major point of disagreement. I am getting to the point here with these questions. This is what I needed to know, and this helps to tell me why you believe that Jesus is the Father.

Do you think there could be possibly more than one person who is YHWH, the one and only God? This is the major question.

There appear to be more than one Person who is YHWH in some Scriptures...such as what appears to be going on here in Zecharaiah 12:10 (NASB):
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

By the way, I am United Methodist, like you, so why does your profile call you "United Methodist," and mine calls me "Methodist"?

I have no idea. Maybe it was something that we selected when we joined the forums. Of the many choices to pick from for religion, "Methodist" and "United Methodist" were probably listed separately.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Another would be Genesis 1:26-27 (NASB)
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Another one is Isaiah 6:8 (NASB)
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I answered, "Here am I. Send me!"