Which passages in particular in Revelation do Amils use to support all of the following?

[ShineyDays2]

I believe that man of sin is a proliferation of unrestrained sin, rebellion and debauchery before the Lord's return. I don't see it as merely a person but as the spirit of rebellion within man. I believe Paul shows that this will infiltrate into the true Church. The flesh will come to the fore taking the place of Christ.

I believe this refers to the spirit of anti-Christ operating within the true Church in the last days – evidenced by the notable growth of false doctrine and unscriptural practices, signs and wonders. That is not to suggest that this anti-Christ spirit can possess the true believer – I don't believe so – but he can influence the believer to accept, expound and walk in error.

The "man of sin" is that natural carnal man within all of us. If we give him an inch he will usurp God every single time. The fact is, either Christ reigns on the throne in the believer or self does. There is no joint control. That man of sin is our greatest enemy in life.

I totally agree with your view of "the man of sin". I don't hear it said that often even in Evangelical churches since Dispensationalism has infiltrated most churches today. The desire to sin and follow false doctrine is still there until the end of all things.

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" ( 1 John 2:16)
​

It's no different now than it was in the Garden in Eden when Eve permitted herself to listen to the serpent ---- she saw it , she wanted it and just had to have it!

 

[ViaCrucis]

A) and bound him a thousand years(Revelation 20:2)

B) and after that he must be loosed a little season(Revelation 20:3)

C) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

D) and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years(Revelation 20:4)


It only stands to reason that if Amils are correct that all of these events precede the 2nd coming, there should be other Scriptures in Revelation involving each of these things.


1) Which passage/s in Revelation do Amils use to show when A) begins?

2) Which passage/s in Revelation do Amils use to show when B) begins?

3) Which passage/s in Revelation do Amils use to show when C) is occurring during?

4) Which passage/s in Revelation do Amils use to show when D) is occurring during?

The reason for this thread is because all of the above has not been entirely clear to me, Amil's position on these things and how Revelation supports what they are concluding.

As to the OP here, I'm not interested as to where Amils find support for some or all of these things outside of Revelation, since most of that is already clear to me for the most part, so that's not what I'm inquiring about in the OP. I'm only interested as to where in Revelation in particular that they find supports all of the above.

The general premise behind the question is, in a sense, backward. Because we don't take the Revelation and build an elaborate theology from it and then shoe-horn it into the rest of Scripture; rather we take what the rest of the Scriptures say, and then read the Revelation in light of that.

So, for example, in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 St. Paul defends the future resurrection of the body, connecting it to Christ's own resurrection as the First Fruits. He tells us that Christ will reign until every power is made subject to Him and every enemy is defeated, the last enemy being death; when is this defeat of death? St. Paul tells us later in the chapter that it is at the resurrection of the dead, declaring "Death has been swallowed up in victory". Going back to Paul speaking that Christ must reign until the end, afterward He hands all things over to the Father.

So Christ, ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father reigns right now, and He must reign until every enemy is defeated and every power made subject, the end comes when He returns, the dead are raised, and He hands the kingdom over to the Father and God is all in all.

Thus the reign of Christ is to be understood not as some future temporal kingdom of earthly power (and, indeed, our Lord time and again declares that the kingdom is not like the temporal kingdoms of this present age, His kingdom is not of this world. His kingdom does not come with observation, but rather His kingdom stood in the midst of even His own accusers--He Himself as King is the reality of the kingdom in their midst. And so His kingdom is, even now, by His death and resurrection, His ascension, taking up His royal throne as Messiah ben David at the right hand of the Father, ruling not from an earthly Jerusalem, but the heavenly Jerusalem.

We take these things, as the Scriptures do teach and declare, and so when we see the 1,000 years mentioned by St. John in his Apocalypse, we read this in light of all else has been said by our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

We do not look forward a temporal, earthly kingdom, but rather the everlasting kingdom that has, and indeed, shall, decimate all other kingdoms. The truth, "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever" is the proclamation of Christ's victory over all powers by His life, death, resurrection, ascension, reign at the right hand of the Father, and His glorious return when the fullness of all these things comes, and God makes all things new, and there is life forever, world without end. See, He is the One who was dead, but is alive forever, who holds the keys of death and Hades in His hands, as Lord over all, King of kings.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sovereigngrace]

I totally agree with your view of "the man of sin". I don't hear it said that often even in Evangelical churches since Dispensationalism has infiltrated most churches today. The desire to sin and follow false doctrine is still there until the end of all things.

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" ( 1 John 2:16)
​

It's no different now than it was in the Garden in Eden when Eve permitted herself to listen to the serpent ---- she saw it , she wanted it and just had to have it!

This true. Well put.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I'm only interested as to where in Revelation in particular that they find supports all of the above.

why not use all of the Words of God to support interpretation of Revelations?

Daniel is the book that was sealed till the end of time and Along with Revelation your inquires can be answered.

 

[DavidPT]

why not use all of the Words of God to support interpretation of Revelations?

I fully agree and don't discourage anyone doing that, but in this particular case, the point I was trying to achieve was, if Amil is the correct position, then it should be able to be proved from Revelation alone. For example, if Amils can show any passages in Revelation before chapter 19 that can be shown to be referring to a period of time when satan is in the pit and nations aren't being deceived at the time, this alone would help prove Amil. So I'm looking for things like that, but in the book of Revelation, not elsewhere instead. Why? Because pretty much everything in Revelation prior to ch 19 involves things that transpire in this age, except for a cpl of parentheticals here and there, such as Revelation 7:15-17, as an example, which appears to be referring to the time of the NHNE mentioned in Revelation 21-22 instead.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I fully agree and don't discourage anyone doing that, but in this particular case, the point I was trying to achieve was, if Amil is the correct position, then it should be able to be proved from Revelation alone. For example, if Amils can show any passages in Revelation before chapter 19 that can be shown to be referring to a period of time when satan is in the pit and nations aren't being deceived at the time, this alone would help prove Amil. So I'm looking for things like that, but in the book of Revelation, not elsewhere instead. Why? Because pretty much everything in Revelation prior to ch 19 involves things that transpire in this age, except for a cpl of parentheticals here and there, such as Revelation 7:15-17, as an example, which appears to be referring to the NHNE mentioned in Revelation 21-22.

I see

 

[DavidPT]

I see

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


But I did forget about this passage at the time when I was addressing your post. This appears to be meaning during the thousand years when satan would be bound in the pit. Premils, such as me, argue that this is meaning post the 2nd coming, and not something that is taking place in this age prior to the 2nd coming. In this particular case, asuming Premils, such as me, are interpreting the timing of these events correctly, would prove Premil and disprove Amil, since Amils would have nowhere for this to fit post the 2nd coming and that Premils would.

One overcomes in this age and are rewarded in the next age during the thousand years with having power over the nations and co ruling with Christ over them with a rod of iron, would be the point.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


But I did forget about this passage at the time when I was addressing your post. This appears to be meaning during the thousand years when satan would be bound in the pit. Premils, such as me, argue that this is meaning post the 2nd coming, and not something that is taking place in this age prior to the 2nd coming. In this particular case, asuming Premils, such as me, are interpreting the timing of these events correctly, would prove Premil and disprove Amil, since Amils would have nowhere for this to fit post the 2nd coming and that Premils would.

One overcomes in this age and are rewarded in the next age during the thousand years with having power over the nations and co ruling with Christ over them with a rod of iron, would be the point.

The Israelite went through the plagues before leaving Egypt.

1 Corinthians 10:11 King James Version
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The experiences of ancient Israel were examples given by God for His people living at the close of time (1 Corinthians 10:11). Just as Israel was delivered from Egyptian bondage after the plagues, so God’s people will be protected through the plagues and be delivered from the hand of the oppressor.

Revelation 15:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

[DavidPT]

The Israelite went through the plagues before leaving Egypt.

1 Corinthians 10:11 King James Version
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The experiences of ancient Israel were examples given by God for His people living at the close of time (1 Corinthians 10:11). Just as Israel was delivered from Egyptian bondage after the plagues, so God’s people will be protected through the plagues and be delivered from the hand of the oppressor.

Revelation 15:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

I don't think I disagree with any of this, so how does this relate to Revelation 2:26-27 and what I proposed about those verses?

 

[DavidPT]

So Christ, ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father reigns right now, and He must reign until every enemy is defeated and every power made subject, the end comes when He returns, the dead are raised, and He hands the kingdom over to the Father and God is all in all.

What's in question though, is there a gap after He returns, in relation to when He hands the kingdom over to the Father and God is all in all? The fact there are some events post the 2nd coming that seem to involve more than just 24 hours or less, hard to imagine how there can't be a gap after He returns and when He hands the kingdom over to His father.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


But I did forget about this passage at the time when I was addressing your post. This appears to be meaning during the thousand years when satan would be bound in the pit. Premils, such as me, argue that this is meaning post the 2nd coming, and not something that is taking place in this age prior to the 2nd coming. In this particular case, asuming Premils, such as me, are interpreting the timing of these events correctly, would prove Premil and disprove Amil, since Amils would have nowhere for this to fit post the 2nd coming and that Premils would.

One overcomes in this age and are rewarded in the next age during the thousand years with having power over the nations and co ruling with Christ over them with a rod of iron, would be the point.

Not at all! Quite the opposite. This is talking about the immediate and total destruction of the wicked and then the judgment. The righteous join Christ in judging the wicked. There is no mention or insinuation of some future millennium here. You have to add it to the text. Premils do this often.

The reigning over the nations with a rod of iron described in Revelation 2, 12 and 19 is a shepherding over the nations at the end. This is not reigning for a 1,000 years as Premils intimate. In fact, one thousand years are not mentioned in the reading. The only thing awaiting the wicked after Christ's Coming is judgment then eternal punishment.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What's in question though, is there a gap after He returns, in relation to when He hands the kingdom over to the Father and God is all in all? The fact there are some events post the 2nd coming that seem to involve more than just 24 hours or less, hard to imagine how there can't be a gap after He returns and when He hands the kingdom over to His father.

If the 1,000 years are symbolic of His reign at the right hand of the Father, then can you name things in Scripture that are expressly said to happen after His return and before the Last Judgment and renewal of all things?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DavidPT]

If the 1,000 years are symbolic of His reign at the right hand of the Father, then can you name things in Scripture that are expressly said to happen after His return and before the Last Judgment and renewal of all things?

-CryptoLutheran

Let me think on it a bit, maybe I will come up with something, or maybe not, but in the meantime I submit the following in regards to what we are discussing in 1 Corinthians 15. Take the following, for example.


Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems to me that this can't be fulfilled until Jesus returns first. If when He returns involves 24 hours or less, how does it make good sense that these in verse 28 only get to sit upon 12 thrones for no more than 24 hours total? It doesn't matter if the thrones are literal or not literal, what matters is, the length of time they will be sitting upon them. If there is no thousand year period following the 2nd coming, should we then assume verse 28 is meaning it will be like this forever and ever? The text indicates this happens during the regeneration. Should we also assume the regeneration lasts forever and ever if there is no thousand year period following the 2nd coming? Or should we assume the regeneration lasts 24 hours or less, which means they only sit on 12 thrones for no more than 24 hours total?

Why would they still need to be judging the 12 tribes of Israel after Jesus has handed the kingdom over to the Father, that God may be all in all, and why would the regeneration be involving something that has no end? And since all of this seems to be too unreasonable to be true, we are back to where I started in the 3rd paragraph and the questions I raised. Also, how should we understand judging here? Shouldn't we understand it in the same sense Paul was meaning in 1 Corinthians 6:1-8, as an example? If yes, how does it make good sense that they only get to do that in that sense for no more than 24 hours total?

(Sorry, I keep editing this post as I think of more things to add in order to try and make my points clearer.) I think I'm finally done adding to what I initially submitted, though.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Let me think on it a bit, maybe I will come up with something, or maybe not, but in the meantime I submit the following in regards to what we are discussing in 1 Corinthians 15. Take the following, for example.


Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems to me that this can't be fulfilled until Jesus returns first. If when He returns involves 24 hours or less, how does it make good sense that these in verse 28 only get to sit upon 12 thrones for no more than 24 hours total? It doesn't matter if the thrones are literal or not literal, what matters is, the length of time they will be sitting upon them. If there is no thousand year period following the 2nd coming, should we then assume verse 28 is meaning it will be like this forever and ever? The text indicates this happens during the regeneration. Should we also assume the regeneration lasts forever and ever if there is no thousand year period following the 2nd coming.

Why would they still need to be judging the 12 tribes of Israel after Jesus has handed the kingdom over to the Father, that God may be all in all, and why would the regeneration be involving something that has no end? And since all of this seems to be too unreasonable to be true, we are back to where I started in the first paragraph. Also, how should we understand judging here? Shouldn't we understand it in the same sense Paul was meaning in 1 Corinthians 6:1-8, as an example?

I agree that Jesus speaks of something after His return here, the renewal of all things, the making new of all creation in the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Gen 2

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

She ate but did not die that day, so did the Lord Lie to her?

No he did not

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The cosmic week of 7000 years

Eve died before the age of 1000 thus the word of the Lord is true from his perspective. (not our understand of the definition of a day)

That is why Satan will be bound for a thousand years IE the day of rest seventh day of the cosmic week.

 

[Timtofly]

Gen 2

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

She ate but did not die that day, so did the Lord Lie to her?

No he did not

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The cosmic week of 7000 years

Eve died before the age of 1000 thus the word of the Lord is true from his perspective. (not our understand of the definition of a day)

That is why Satan will be bound for a thousand years IE the day of rest seventh day of the cosmic week.

The Sabbath to remember was the first "cosmic" day. There was 1000 years on earth before the Garden of Eden was planted. 1030 to 2030 would be the 7th Day. The last Millennium is the 8th Day. Sunday was between creation and the Garden. 30 years in the Garden. The fall to the Flood was roughly 1500 years. Tuesday was split in half with the Flood in the middle. Abraham was the start of Wednesday. Wednesday was split between Ishmael and Israel. The kingdom of Israel lasted most of Thursday 600 years and the 400 years after Jerusalem was restored. The Babylonian captivity was only 70 years. Friday would be from the Cross until 1030AD. Saturday has 9 years left, 2021 to 2030. Six days of punishment assigned to till the ground by the sweat of the forehead and the existence of sin in the world only lasted Monday through Saturday. The first day, Sundays, were set apart as Holy and without sin to God. God "labored" 6 days in creation and will not make Adam's descendants go past 6 days of punishment. In fact 7 years have been redeemed. The mark of the beast will be given to those who are diehard enough to work past the last 7 years after the cut off point of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.