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Which Abominations are OK?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by HARK!, Jun 2, 2020.

  1. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The only creatures that God sanctified are the clean animals. To sanctify something means to set it apart, or make it holy. God set the clean animals apart - Leviticus 11

    Contextually, “every” refers to every creature sanctified by the word of God(Leviticus 11), not every single creature in existence.

    Romans 14:1-4 discusses the dispute between believers who are vegetarian and the believers who eat clean animals.

    It’s not about a dispute between believers who do and don’t eat unclean animals.
     
  2. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This might be true, only if all the Christians at Rome were Jews. But the epistle is not written to a synagogue but the church at Rome which would have been made up of Jews and gentiles.
    And there is no commandment in the NT for formerly pagan gentile Christians to observe the dietary restrictions.

    Acts of the Apostles 15:5
    5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
    Acts of the Apostles 15:10
    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    Acts of the Apostles 15:20
    20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    Acts of the apostles 15:24
    24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
    Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29
    28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
    Acts of the Apostles 21:24-25
    24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
    25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, [keep the law vs. 24] save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  3. Junia

    Junia Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. so i wonder who the Jews are currently livng in/arriving in Israel if they are not God's true people?
     
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  4. Junia

    Junia Well-Known Member

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    so clean animals refers to animals sacrificed to idols beign made clean by praying over them but not things like pork etc?
     
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  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I don't know exactly what you mean by God's true people; but there is only one way to YHWH, and that is through Yahshua.
     
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  6. Junia

    Junia Well-Known Member

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    i undesrstand that. because we are confident in the salvation He has given us, i guess we want to try and please Him. well, i can do a simple thing like giving uo porkand shellfish. as a diabetic i should be watching my cholesterol anyway
     
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  7. Junia

    Junia Well-Known Member

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    ok so who are Gods people who are in exile??? all believers then? i dont belive there i s one race of Gods people. Jews became scatterd all over the world, so those Jews returning to Israel from Ethiopia and Russia etc ae definitely part of God' people Israel. i am talkign about Israel the nation. of course, all of us who have been saved by Jesus are His people. but there is a nation called Israel through whom the end times prophecies are being fulfilled. THEY are the 144 000 mentioned in the book of Revelation. they are just asmall fraction of those who will eb saved in the end.....heaven will be full of many many people, a lot more than 144 000 which is a small number really.

    those Jews in Israel now are the true Israel. and there are more coming all the time. not just Russia, Ethiopia etc but they will come from all over. there are many Jews in the US , Britain and Australia still yet to come home, not to many other nations
     
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  8. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Clean animals are the ones God permits to be eaten, like cows, sheep, goats, salmon, birds that are not birds of prey, tuna, sardines etc.

    Leviticus 11 goes into detail about clean and unclean animals.

    The Gentiles turning to God were commanded to abstain from meat offered to idols, Acts 15:29

    A clean animal is still categorically a clean if it is offered to an idol, but it is offered to an idol, and we are not to eat meat offered to idols.

    Meat offered to idols still exists - Halal meat is offered to an idol - the god of Islam.
     
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  9. Junia

    Junia Well-Known Member

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    yes, for those Christians who have become saved out of Islam i can imagine how they would struggle with going back to eating Halal foods- it oculd cause them to stumble. So when am eating pr cooking for myself i am free to eat anything (havent been saved from idolatory- i grew up in christian home) but i am careful around converts to Christianity who come from Muslim backgrounds. I would not serve halal meat to an ex-Muslim sister or brother if they came to my home. most of the meat in my country is Halal (97% they reckon) so I try to ask no questions as to origins when i shop. my conscience is not really tender re: halal but i would say i have a sensitive conscience generally and dont want to get caught up in worrying about food (have quite enough to deal with).

    i do not believe you can become demon posessed by eating food if you pray over it. I know many christians who take all kinds of medications, eat all kinds of foods, wear wigs in their hair, wear hair dye etc all things from fallen angels but we know that if we pray over these things we will be fine.
     
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  10. Broken Fence

    Broken Fence God blessed and hallowed the 7th day Supporter

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    I think is simple, do what makes God happy. Don't you wanna make your friends happy. How much more Jesus.
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I believe so.

    Neither do I; and I have much evidence to support that belief.

    The word Jew didn't even exist until about 500 years ago. Jews are not the lost tribes. Being Israel doesn't necessarily mean that one is of the lost tribes.

    Did you watch that short video? That is just a teaser for a series that lasts for many hours. I think maybe 20 hours; but that is just the tip of the iceberg of the study I've done on this subject. This is way too deep a subject to get into in this thread, nor even a single thread for that matter.

    Short story: Isaiah isn't 83% wrong.
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Acts 11
    CLV(i) 1 Now the apostles and the brethren who are of Judea hear that the nations also receive the word of God. 2 Now when Peter went up into Jerusalem, those of the Circumcision doubted him,

    Still no mention of food!

    3 saying that "You entered to men having uncircumcision, and you ate with them!"

    They weren't surprised by what he ate, simply that he ate with them. No mention of what they ate.


    4 Now Peter begins and expounded it to them consecutively, 5 saying, "I was in the city of Joppa, praying; and I perceived, in an ecstasy, a vision, a certain utensil descending, as a large sheet with four edges, being let down out of heaven; and it came as far as me." 6 Into which, looking intently, I considered and perceived the quadrupeds of the earth and the wild beasts and the reptiles and the flying creatures of heaven." 7 Now I hear a voice also, saying to me, 'Rise, Peter! Sacrifice and eat!'" 8 Yet I said, 'Far be it from me, Lord, for a thing contaminating or unclean never entered into my mouth!'"

    Now he's bragging about it.

    9 Yet the voice answered a second time out of heaven, 'What God cleanses, do not you count contaminating!'" 10 Now this occurred thrice, and it is all pulled up again into heaven."

    Same story. No Pagan Picnic!

    11 And lo! forthwith three men stand by at the house in which we were, having been dispatched from Caesarea to me." 12 Now the spirit said to me to come together with them, nothing doubting. Now these six brethren also came with me, and we entered into the man's house." 13 Now he reports to us how he perceived the messenger, standing in his house and saying, 'Dispatch to Joppa and send after Simon, who is surnamed Peter, 14 who will be speaking declarations to you by which you shall be saved, you and your entire house.'" 15 Now as I begin to speak, the holy spirit falls on them, even as on us also in the beginning." 16 Now I am reminded of the declaration of the Lord, as He said that 'John, indeed, baptizes in water, yet you shall be baptized in holy spirit.'" 17 If, then, God gives them the equal gratuity as to us also, when believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I - able to forbid God?

    Clearly, once again, this story has nothing to do with food. It's about accepting new believers.
     
  13. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes He did. Enjoy the Kool Aid!

    1 Timothy 4 King James Version (KJV)
    4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

    4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

    According to Paul those who teach we have to abstain from certain foods are giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. Just like celibacy!

    For those who believe and know th etruth-God say s every creature is good and nothing to be refused, if it is received with Thanksgiving.

    Doesn't get more clearere than that!

    Have a pork chop on me!
     
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  14. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Changing the maening of Scripture like you just did is dangerous!

    Paul wa writing to Timothy to teach Gentiles!!!! They had no knowledge of clean and unclean!

    Adding to Pauls passages to gentiles is very very disingenuous. YOu make so many assumptions upon the Word of God!

    Paul taught the whole Mosaic Law was no longer in effect and was never intended for gentiles as gentiles! That went for the Jews as well for righteousness . Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to all who believe!

    YOu cannot find one passage where Paul orders gentiles to follow th eMosaic dietary laws.

    Galatians 2:11-16 King James Version (KJV)
    11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

    12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

    13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

    14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

    15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    If you wish to follow the dietary laws as a matter of personal conviction--God Bless youand go for ti! But if you seek to compel anyone else to do the same- You are to be resisted at all costs for promulgating doctrines of demons as Paul directly said in Timothy!

    Your only argument comes from supposing on the passages things that do not appear anywhere in Scripture!
     
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    YHWH didn't create scavengers to be received with thanksgiving. He made them to clean up the trash.
     
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  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Now let us suppose that we are 1st gentile converts to Christianity with virtually no knowledge of OT dietary rules and we are hearing/reading Acts of the apostles 10:9-16 and Acts of the apostles 11:5-10 for the first time. Would those 1st century former pagan gentile Christians immediately think "Oh that doesn't have anything to do with food?"
    The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book II.Chap. I
    Peter abstained from swine; “but a trance fell on him,” as is written in the Acts of the Apostles, “and he saw heaven opened, and a vessel let down on the earth by the four corners, and all the four-footed beasts and creeping things of the earth and the fowls of heaven in it; and there came a voice to him, Rise, and slay, and eat. And Peter said, Not so, Lord, for I have never eaten what is common or unclean. And the voice came again to him the second time, What God hath cleansed, call not thou common.” (Act_10:10-15) The use of them is accordingly indifferent to us. “For not what entereth into the mouth defileth the man,” (Mat_15:11) but the vain opinion respecting uncleanness. For God, when He created man, said, “All things shall be to you for meat.” (Gen_9:2, Gen_9:3) “And herbs, with love, are better than a calf with fraud.”
    Origen Against Celsus. Book II. Chap. II.
    And so, according to the promise of Jesus, the Spirit of truth came to Peter, saying to him, with regard to the four-footed beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air: “Arise, Peter; kill, and eat.” And the Spirit came to him while he was still in a state of superstitious ignorance; for he said, in answer to the divine command, “Not so Lord; for I have never yet eaten anything common or unclean.” He instructed him, however, in the true and spiritual meaning of meats, by saying, “What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.”
    Origen Against Celsus. Book V. Chap. XLIX.
    But neither do the Jews pride themselves upon abstaining from swine’s flesh, as if it were some great thing; but upon their having ascertained the nature of clean and unclean animals, and the cause of the distinction, and of swine being classed among the unclean. And these distinctions were signs of certain things until the advent of Jesus; after whose coming it was said to His disciple, who did not yet comprehend the doctrine concerning these matters, but who said, “Nothing that is common or unclean hath entered into my mouth,” (cf. Act_10:14) “What God hath cleansed, call not thou common.” It therefore in no way affects either the Jews or us that the Egyptian priests abstain not only from the flesh of swine, but also from that of goats, and sheep, and oxen, and fish. But since it is not that “which entereth into the mouth that defiles a man,” and since “meat does not commend us to God,” we do not set great store on refraining from eating, nor yet are we induced to eat from a gluttonous appetite.



     
  17. Broken Fence

    Broken Fence God blessed and hallowed the 7th day Supporter

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    Question how do we know we are gentiles? The Lost Tribes went everywhere.
     
  18. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    This is easy:

    Luke–Acts can also be seen as a defense of (or "apology" for) the Jesus movement addressed to the Jews: the bulk of the speeches and sermons in Acts are addressed to Jewish audiences, with the Romans serving as external arbiters on disputes concerning Jewish customs and law.[5]

    Acts of the Apostles - Wikipedia

    It wasn't addressed to Pagans. The message was directed at Jews, who had turned to become part of Israel, and how they should respond to Pagans who were turning to become part of Israel.

    YHWH never called Pagans, who were turning to him, an abomination.

    See: The mixed multitude at Sinai, also see Ruth.
     
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  19. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Good question.

    YHWH's covenant with Israel. The gentile in me died, and was reborn in Yahshua, King of Israel.

    I am no longer of those Pagan nations.
     
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  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You haven't read Genesis have you?
    Genesis 1:24-25
    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind, quadrupeds and reptiles and wild beasts of the earth according to their kind, and it was so.
    25 And God made the wild beasts of the earth according to their kind, and cattle according to their kind, and all the reptiles of the earth according to their kind, and God saw that they were good.
    Genesis 1:29-30
    29 And God said, Behold I have given to you every seed-bearing herb sowing seed which is upon all the earth, and every tree which has in itself the fruit of seed that is sown, to you it shall be for food.
    30 And to all the wild beasts of the earth, and to all the flying creatures of heaven, and to every reptile creeping on the earth, which has in itself the breath of life, even every green plant for food; and it was so.


     
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