Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[keras]

I say we are at seal three still, the black horse period of time,

With his belief, you are shuffling Revelation; Not advisable.
Is it not obvious to all that the Fifth Seal was opened when Jesus Ascended? The roll of Christian martyrs started with the stoning of Stephen, writen in the Book of Life; Still ongoing.

Therefore; the first four Seals must be open too and that is plain to see, as we have had the murderous wars, the shocking famines, the pandemic plagues and the devastating economic collapses.
It is the forthcoming sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster that will commence all the Prophesied end time events.

 

[contratodo]

It is the forthcoming sudden and shocking Sixth Seal worldwide disaster that will commence all the Prophesied end time events.

The problem with that idea is that Revelation 6:12-17 clearly is describing the ultimate day of the Lord as described in other parts of scripture,
I think I posted them all already in this thread. Joel chapter 2, Isaiah and so on. Also there are no such things as nukes or asteroids,
both of those concepts were created to help hide and muddy end times events.

I believe that Revelation is telling a repeated prophecy, therefore we will experience things coming down from the sky causing disaster
as described in Revelation chapter 8. Just as some of 6 has past, some of 8 has passed too, and the enemy lies and says that the craters we see are from asteroids millions of years ago, I believe the truth is that some of Rev 8 happened, and it has been covered up with lies.

Ultimately time will tell, the economy of the world should soon crash, if it is the black horse period of time.
And we will also experience 'asteroids' if Revelation is indeed telling a repeated story.

 

[keras]

Revelation 6:12-17 clearly is describing the ultimate day of the Lord as described in other parts of scripture,

No; it is not, the final 'battle', as described in Revelation 20:7-10 is described quite differently to the Sixth Seal.
It is a mistake to mess around with Revelation. There are some flashbacks and parenthesis, but that Book is generally in the correct sequence of events.
It is clear from Isaiah 61:2, where Jesus stopped His quote, that the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath is the next action by the Lord.

We can see today, from many angles, that there must come some kind of dramatic event to resolve the multitude of problems we have now.
Remember: God did reset our civilization in Noah's day, now; over 100 Prophesies vividly describe the forthcoming Day of fire, earthquakes and storms. ...many will be killed by Him... Isaiah 66:15-17
Obviously this disaster will not be the end of it all.

 

[contratodo]

No; it is not, the final 'battle', as described in Revelation 20:7-10 is described quite differently to the Sixth Seal.

It's not the final battle, it is the ultimate day of the Lord.
Jesus is the Lord.
Revelation 6 is matching Revelation 19. The day the Lord arrives to do doom.
Yes, that is not the final battle, but it is the ultimate day of the Lord, the day when Jesus returns gloriously.

Matthew 24:29-31 is describing the same events as Revelation 6:12-17.
And Joel 2:10-11 matches both Revelation 19:20-21 and Revelation 6:13,
showing us that the army of saints is there also when the stars fall.

All of the passages speak of the sun and moon becoming dark, and the stars.
The connections we see make clear that the passages are speaking about the same events.
Revelation is a series of prophetic visions seen by John of the old prophecies coming to pass.

 

[keras]

It's not the final battle, it is the ultimate day of the Lord.
Jesus is the Lord.
Revelation 6 is matching Revelation 19. The day the Lord arrives to do doom.

Jesus does not Return to smash up the world He comes to rule over.
Then, He simply kills all the ungodly peoples by the Sword of His Word. Only the faithful righteous peoples will go with Him in the Millennium.

The fact of the sun being darkened and meteors falling, is no proof that the Sixth Seal and the Return are concurrent. Those things happen often, naturally and can be of no significance.

Revelation is a series of prophetic visions seen by John of the old prophecies coming to pass.

Yes, and we need to realize that most of the OT Prophesies remain unfulfilled.
They tell of a Day, a terrible day, when the Lord will send His fiery wrath to reset our civilization to a similar extent as He did in Noah's time. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:12-15, +

 

[Butch5]

Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.

It doesn't. That's a concept that entered the Christian faith from Greek Philosophy. The Christian's hope is really the restoration of creation.

 

[Butch5]

I think all you have shown is that Hades in the NT is the same thing as Sheol in the OT.
That is fine. Sometimes it was just called the grave. And Gehenna the city dump was a picture of eternal punishment
in the lake of fire.

But to the point of my OP-
I am curious why you have not answered my question to you.

What passage would you point to show that today, now there are people in heaven?
Should I take your silence in this to indicate you have no Scriptural evidence that some believers have "gone to heaven"?

There is shortage of sight into God's economy today. That economy being God bringing man into God and God into man.
This truth is veiled to many. In its place is going to a happy place. But this is the natural unenlightened tradition. It is difficult for Christians to drop this rather superstious thought to see that we areby transformation being united with the Triune God.

There are no passages that indicate that people go to heaven. However, we do have passages the show they don't. In 1 Cor. 15 Paul said, of Christians who had died, if there is no resurrection they had already perished.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Co 15:15–18.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose what displeased Me. Ezekiel 20:25

The prevalent error is in thinking that the Israel visible today is still the chosen of God. Wrong; they un-chose themselves, Matthew 27:25 and now it is every born again Christian, who belongs to the new nation of God's people. Matthew 21:43

With the rapture cult, the initial error is that of separating Israel and the Church, so they could still look for salvation to come to ethnic Israel, as a major tenet of their doctrine: Israel on earth, the Church in heaven. The pre-Trib rapture teaches removal to ensure survival from tribulation, but salvation has always been stated to redeem us from our fallen sinful state, in our earthly situation.

Acts 20:21 I know that when I am gone, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The rapture idea is that God will “save us” from that which must occur – thus equating this supposed removal with salvation. After so many Christians saw the inadequacy and misappropriation of the verses used to promote Pre-Trib, the Post-Trib alternative was then built around surviving the tribulation – thus sustaining the illusion that survival is somehow related to salvation.

A strong delusion is mentioned in the New Testament: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This delusion has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture to heaven, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in a rapture removal from the earth. The reality is, we experience His glorious salvation when we enter in to the blessed assurance that Christ’s Death means the penalty for our sin has been paid because of His sacrifice on the Cross. Ever since then, believers must trust in Jesus for their salvation and for their protection during the testing times to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24

And if the Lord does not save them, just as has happened to the millions of martyrs in the last 2 centuries, then we must die trusting in His promise of resurrection. Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:10 Our souls will be kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, and Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return, then bring us to life again, to reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

Jesus said: take care that you be not deceived..... Seems that many have been rather careless!

 

[cradleGO]

The problem with that is that Paul didn't tell us he went up to Paradise.

I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I do not know, or outside the body I do not know; God knows) such a one was caught away to the third heaven.

And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows),

That he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak. (2 Cor. 12:2-4)

Paul says he was caught away to these places. That he is speaking of two places is reasonable- the third heaven high above and Paradise below. The conjunction "and" is a strong indication that he was speaking of two experiences.
Therefore to his mind the 3rd Heaven was not the same as Paradise.

Jesus and the believing thief on the day they died went to be in the heart of the earth which Jesus said Paradise was.
It is the same Greek word used in Acts 8:39 for Phillip the evangelist being caught away.
It is also the same word used in 1 Thess. 4:17 for the believers being caught away together meet the Lord in the clouds.

And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Jesus did not go to the 3rd Heaven the day He died. He did not spend three days in the 3rd Heaven.

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
Jesus taught that He would die and spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Paradise that Jesus went to was a pleasant section of Hades. And this corresponds the poor
Lazarus in Luke 16:22-23, 25 being in Hades in a pleasant section called "Abraham's bosom."
Across an impassible gulf in which the unpleasnt section of Hades was where the rich man was in
the torment of flames. Abraham and the punished rich man were able to converse with each other over the divide.

I would mention the Paradise in Revelation 2:7 in another post.

What verse would you point to to demonstrate that now, today any people are in the 3rd Heaven?
Thankyou.

Topic is beyond my paygrade, but I look at Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, heart of the earth, heavens, etc., as different physical dimensions. Some dimensions may have a "good side" and a "bad side". Some may have multiple components according to the characteristics of those dimensions. To go up or down may have some practical basis, but "up" means one thing here, and likely another thing "there".

More broadly, we know what we should do to please God, right? So, we will get what we deserve. The struggle is here.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.

some considerations for you to show the clarity of our eternal inheritance. And yes there will also be a new heaven and a new earth. But wherever Jesus is we go. “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13 KJV)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you," ( 1 Peter 1:3,4 KJV)

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." ( Revelation 7:15-17 KJV)

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. " (Revelation 11:12 KJV)

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;" (2 Corinthians 5:8-10 KJV)

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:2 KJV). Do we follow Jesus even into heaven? Yes,

“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV)

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” (Kuje 23:43 KJV)

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Philippians 3:20, 21 KJV)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.

I don’t believe that heaven is our eternal destination but there are several verses about people entering the kingdom of heaven and storing up our rewards in heaven. There’s also the people in Revelation 6 who’s voice came from under the altar which was before the throne of God which seems to suggest that they were probably in heaven.

”When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[RocK Guy]

Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

"Heaven" is where the Lord is, so being in His presence is being in Heaven.

After the great tribulation there will be a time when the Father moves Heaven to earth

 

[Marilyn C]

THE BODY OF CHRIST`S INHERITANCE IS IN HEAVEN.

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)

(New King James)

 

[oikonomia]

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So you are believe we can "be in heaven" can be inserted into 2 Cor. 5:8 and it is equivalent?

Ie. "to be absent from the body, [ and be in heaven ]" perfectly expresses Paul's thought ?

Paul does not want to be forever unclothed or naked even in heaven.
Surely, his desire is in harmony with the desire of God.

To physically die is being released from the material realm. But this for the complete human being is
not desired as an eternal state. In the same chapter the Apostle Paul teaches that being without a body is
to be found "naked" and unclothed. It is a possible state of man but not one he desired.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. (2 Cor. 5:1)
The physical body he then possessed he considered a temporary tabernacle.
He expects a non-temporary but eternal permenant building from God. Its source - in the heavens.

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven, (v.2)
Our longing is to be clothed upon with this eternal dwelling.

If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked. (v.3)
Out longing is in contrast to the advent of being found "naked" - a disembodied spirit/soul human.
Though it is possible it is not desireable as normality.

For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (v.4)
Our groaning is for a glorified eternal clothed existence rather than an mortal unclothed one.

From within divine life is springing up into eternal life (John 4:14)
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. (John 4:14)

And from without divine life comes to swallow up mortality in eternal life.
. . . clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (v.4)

"Heaven" is where the Lord is, so being in His presence is being in Heaven.

There are degrees of being with the Lord. As he ministers in the flesh he is with the Lord.
For the Lord is with our regenerated spirit - The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)
The Lord is with us all the days until the consummation of the age - And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age. (Matt. 28:20b)

The Father is both in heaven - Our Father which art in heaven, (Matt. 6:9)
But He is also "in all" the members of the Body of Christ - One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph. 4:6)

Likewise in Romans 8 Christ has two locations where He is.
He is at the right hand of God interceding for us - It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Rom. 8:34b)
And Christ is simultaneously in the believers - But if Christ is in you, (Rom. 8:10a)

In a relative sense Paul says that for the Christian to be physically dead is to be with the Lord (more so).
But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better; (Phil. 1;23)

In this sense to be in the physical body is to be abroad from the Lord.
. . . knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6b)

But the best situation is to receive the eternal glorified body as a clothing that we would not be found naked.
we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor. 5:4b)

After the great tribulation there will be a time when the Father moves Heaven to earth

The Lord did instruct us to pray that the Father's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The Father's will has its climax in a new heaven and new earth as an environment for the saved.

Within this new heaven and new earth is a city - meaning a corporate group of people called New Jerusalem.
Revelation 21 and 22 show by means if signs (Rev. 1:1) God and man united as one.
The conclusion of the Bible shows an organic union and blending of God and man as the dwelling place of God.

The plain teaching of this destiny is seen many places like Ephesians 2:19-22 -

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph, 2:19-22)

Here then in the completion of God's full salvation is the living habitation of God in man and man in God as
the union, mingling, uniting and blending of the triune God with the tripartite man as a temple / city - New Jerusalem.

Her environment is a new heaven and a new earth. God's will in heaven is done on earth.

I would like to share a couple of songs about this for this discussion -

 

[oikonomia]

some considerations for you to show the clarity of our eternal inheritance. And yes there will also be a new heaven and a new earth. But wherever Jesus is we go. “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13 KJV)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you," ( 1 Peter 1:3,4 KJV)

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." ( Revelation 7:15-17 KJV)

This is very good. Christ is all our hope. And He now is in heaven. Our life is hidden with Christ in God.

Passages mentioning what is reserved in heaven or laid up in the heavens must refer to the Person of the Lord Jesus.
All our destiny is with Him, concerning Him, in Him and is Him.

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. " (Revelation 11:12 KJV)

I have no complaint against the two witnesses ascending up to heaven in a cloud.
Jesus ascended and is to descend in the same manner in which they saw Him ascend.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;" (2 Corinthians 5:8-10 KJV)

Yes, thankyou for reminding me of these familiar and wonderful passages.

Yet 2 Cor. 5:8-10 does not say teach that we have an eternal dwelling place either in heaven or before the judgment seat of Christ.

To be present with the Lord is a matter of degree.
The thief who was present with the Lord on the cross would be MORE present with the Lord in paradise to which he was
going with the Lord. Three days the Lord was there in the heart of the earth.

And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)

Like the believing thief who was saved the Apostle Paul also expected to be absent from the physical body
and more with the Lord in Paradise. There he would await to be resurrected and clothed upon with a glorfied body
that he would no more be found naked.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,

If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked.

For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:2 KJV). Do we follow Jesus even into heaven? Yes,

This passage is usually taken to be about Jesus preparing mansions in heaven.
But closer examination reveals He goes to the cross to prepare a place for redeemed man in God.

The Father's house was His own physical body.

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?
But He spoke of the temple of His body. ((John 2:19-21)

After resurrection His mystical body becomes the Father's house - a living and organic incorporation where we can
be where the Son of God is - in the Father and the Father in Him.

In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be.(John 14:2,3)

Where He is is where He would have all the redeemed be - mingled with God.

The many abodes in verse 2 are plural. In verse 23 He and His Father will come to make an abode with His lovers.
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (v.23)

This could only begin to happen by Him going to Calvary's cross to accomplish redemption and create a place
for us in God - in His mystical Body.

His mighty prayer in John 17 climaxes in His request that we be with Him where He is - that is a man mingled with God
and expressing the glory if God in man and man in God.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me.

Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:22-24)

Thankyou for your contributions there.
I stop here for length's sake.

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is very good. Christ is all our hope. And He now is in heaven. Our life is hidden with Christ in God.

Passages mentioning what is reserved in heaven or laid up in the heavens must refer to the Person of the Lord Jesus.
All our destiny is with Him, concerning Him, in Him and is Him.


I have no complaint against the two witnesses ascending up to heaven in a cloud.
Jesus ascended and is to descend in the same manner in which they saw Him ascend.



Yes, thankyou for reminding me of these familiar and wonderful passages.

Yet 2 Cor. 5:8-10 does not say teach that we have an eternal dwelling place either in heaven or before the judgment seat of Christ.

To be present with the Lord is a matter of degree.
The thief who was present with the Lord on the cross would be MORE present with the Lord in paradise to which he was
going with the Lord. Three days the Lord was there in the heart of the earth.

And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)

Like the believing thief who was saved the Apostle Paul also expected to be absent from the physical body
and more with the Lord in Paradise. There he would await to be resurrected and clothed upon with a glorfied body
that he would no more be found naked.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,

If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked.

For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.


This passage is usually taken to be about Jesus preparing mansions in heaven.
But closer examination reveals He goes to the cross to prepare a place for redeemed man in God.

The Father's house was His own physical body.

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?
But He spoke of the temple of His body. ((John 2:19-21)

After resurrection His mystical body becomes the Father's house - a living and organic incorporation where we can
be where the Son of God is - in the Father and the Father in Him.

In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be.(John 14:2,3)

Where He is is where He would have all the redeemed be - mingled with God.

The many abodes in verse 2 are plural. In verse 23 He and His Father will come to make an abode with His lovers.
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (v.23)

This could only begin to happen by Him going to Calvary's cross to accomplish redemption and create a place
for us in God - in His mystical Body.

His mighty prayer in John 17 climaxes in His request that we be with Him where He is - that is a man mingled with God
and expressing the glory if God in man and man in God.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me.

Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:22-24)

Thankyou for your contributions there.
I stop here for length's sake.

Hello and God bless,

The idea you had about Jesus going to prepare a place for us and you were saying this is a place for the Father to dwell in all believers. The only issue with this is that the Father was already in all believers before the cross. And no man could even come to Jesus unless they had first been taught of God and heard from the Father.

Just a few if the verses to show this more could be given.

This understanding goes into the Trinity understanding. Also the believers already belonged to the Father before they were given to Jesus.

Matthew 10: 20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

John 6: 44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

So, we can safely say that the place Jesus said he was to go and prepare a place for them is a place possibly in Heaven.

We read ,

Isaiah 66: 1. Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

So if God’s throne is in heaven and we shall appear before God, then we go to Heaven and earth will also be new as well. But if Heaven is his throne we can see that his house is in Heaven. We have a house eternal in the heavens.

And we read

Hebrews 11: 14, 16 “ For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country…16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be.(John 14:2,3)

Where He is is where He would have all the redeemed be - mingled with God.

The many abodes in verse 2 are plural. In verse 23 He and His Father will come to make an abode with His lovers.
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (v.23)

The word house is better used not “abode” in this instance, house in Greek meaning property or residence.

 

[oikonomia]

Hello and God bless,

The idea you had about Jesus going to prepare a place for us and you were saying this is a place for the Father to dwell in all believers. The only issue with this is that the Father was already in all believers before the cross.

Why do you believe the Divine Father is in the men before the accomplishment of eternal redemption at the cross?
Is it because the term Father was used in the Hebrew Bible?

And no man could even come to Jesus unless they had first been taught of God and heard from the Father.

That means no one could be a believer in Jesus without the merciful drawing power of the Father.
But men could be drawn to Jesus, attracted to Jesus prior to receiving Him within them.

When He comes the Father in Him comes along to to indwell the believers who have been drawn to Jesus.
Especially in John's Gospel at resurrection we see Him breath Himself into His followers as the Holy Spirit.

Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:21,22)

It was at resurrection He began (in John) to say His Father was now their Father.

. . . for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them,
I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17b)

It is in resurrection He became in a state in which He could dwell within man as "a life giving Spirit".

the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

It is in resurrection that we become regenerated unto a living hope - the living indwelling Lord Jesus.

who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3b)

The day we shall know He is in the Father and we in Him and He in us is the day we recieve Him in resurrection.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20)

Just a few if the verses to show this more could be given.

I am aware of verses that could be offered to show the Spirit was in, for example, some of the prophets.
But there are two great becames in the New Testament that show the process the Triune God passed through in order to be our life.

1.) The Word became flesh (John 1:14).
2.) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)

The first step as you know concerns the incarnation of God as a man.
The second step concerns this God-man becoming in a form that He could impart the life of this God-man GIVING us Christ from within.

The God-man would not leave us as orphans. But He would come to us in resurrection.
For the coming of the Another Comforter is actually the coming of the Lord Jesus in the form of a life giving Spirit.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. (John 14:16-18)

Notice that the Him and the He of verse 17 suddenly becomes the I of verse 18.
He dwelt with the disciples for three and one half years - you know Him, because He abides with you . . .

He who abode with them as their Master will not change His state to abide in them, not leaving them as orphans but coming to them.
Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

They knew Him before His death and resurrection as an outward present companion.
But in resurrection He will abide in them as a divine life giving Spirit.

And of course His coming not leaving them orphans is also the coming of the Father - the divine "We" of the trinity then
is able to make an abode with each of us,

If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (14:23b)

This understanding goes into the Trinity understanding. Also the believers already belonged to the Father before they were given to Jesus.

But the Triune God could enter man and man enter into the Triune God only after Christ accomplished eternal redemption.
And that is what He meant by He would go away to prepare a place for man in God.

It was expedient for Him to go to the cross. That means to their advantage. The expediency is that Christ and His followers
can not through His redemptive act and resurrection have a more intimate relationship with us. He can now be within us as our own
very life.

But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
But I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away,
the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. (John 16:6,7)

Matthew 10: 20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

It is evident in Matthew's gospel Jesus does speak of "your Father" and we should pray "our Father".
His speaking there is in view of what will happen when He becomes the life giving Spirit in resurrection to bring
He and His Father as the Spirit as the divine "We" into His lovers.

I take the Lord's words in Matthew's gospel indicating God as our Father to be anticipatory.
From the standpoint of God's transcendent viewpoint it has all taken place already - His economical dispensing of Himself into man.

For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you. (Matt. 10:20)

Matthew and John compliment each other rather than contradict each other.
If I believe the Father is already indwelling the disciples before Christ's death and resurrection then John must be in error.
For John records Christ taking the expedient step of going from abiding WITH the disciples to abiding IN the disciples.
But that would be unnecessary if He were already in the disciples before His going to accomplish redemption for man.

On the other hand I cannot say Matthew is mistaken to record Jesus saying before His redemptive act that
the Father was thier Father.

I resolve this tension by viewing Matthew 's record of Christ's teaching as anticipatory.
This is somewhat like seeing "glorified" which is not happened to us yet, is spoken in the past tense by Paul in Romans 8.

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

Since all these actions are spoken of in the past tense, we understand from the viewpoint of God's trancendents they
have ALL been already accomplished including glorification.

So Matthew's admittedly clear word that He was the Father of the disiples is anticipatory.

I have to suspend writing now until latter.
Thanks for your fellowship. I can only respond this much right now.

Cont. latter.

 

[oikonomia]

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

So, we can safely say that the place Jesus said he was to go and prepare a place for them is a place possibly in Heaven.

The place to which He is both going and is the way to go there is a living Person.

The place is the living Father - no one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6)
The way to the place is also a living Person, the Son - I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me. (14:6)

Both the "place" and the way to the "place" is a living Triune God Himself.

I would submit that the natural mind typically inserts "heaven" as the place to which Christ was going
And the natural thought typically sees Jesus is the way to heaven.

While we cannot doubt that Jesus is the way of any aspect of God's salvation this chapter is really
about Jesus bringing man into God and God into man for the habitation of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:22)

You see from the beginning of the creation of man God indicated that His will was to
be received by man as "food" for the indwelling of man. This is why He presented Himself
in the form of "the tree of life" - good for food.

And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Genesis 2:9)

God presented Himself to His created human being in the form of food to enter into man for man's enjoyment, sustanance, and nourishment.
You well know that the this possibility to partake of God as the indwelling One was cut off from man once man was joined to Satan.

And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever — . . .
So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22,24)

The way for man to take in God was forbidden by the three-fold demand upon fallen man.
Fallen man comes short of the glory of God represented by the guarding cherubim.
Fallen man comes short of the righteousness of God represented by the guarding sword.
Fallen man comes short of the holiness of God represented by the flame of the sword.

He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22,24)

The going away of Jesus the Son of God to prepare us to enter into the Father's house is exactly His going
to accomplish the removal of these eternal barriers to man partaking of God's incwelling man for eternal life.

In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be. (John 14:2,3)

The Apostle Peter confirms that Christ suffered that He might bring us to God.

For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, (1 Pet. 3:18a)

We read ,

Isaiah 66: 1. Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

So if God’s throne is in heaven and we shall appear before God, then we go to Heaven and earth will also be new as well. But if Heaven is his throne we can see that his house is in Heaven. We have a house eternal in the heavens.

I think you miss the point of Isaiah 66 there.
The tone is that Heaven is His throne, the earth is His footstool, all the created things are His. WHERE then can He find His house, His dwelling place? To find this longed for dwelling place He looks to a certain kind of man to be His house. Read verse 2 as a continuation of God's
inquiry there.

Thus says Jehovah, / Heaven is My throne, / And the earth the footstool for My feet. / Where then is the house that you will build for Me, / And where is the place of My rest? (v.1)

For all these things My hand has made, / And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah. / But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor / And of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word. (v.2)

In light of the whole rest of the Bible that man is God incarnate - the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ first,
God incarnate as a man in Jesus was that man poor, contrite of spirit, and took seriously to the uttermost the word of His Father.

To THIS kind of a man God looks for the house to live and the place of His final rest.

First this dwelling place is in the singular God-man the Lord Jesus.
Then this dwelling is in the corporate Body of Christ the church - consummating in the New Jerusalem.

And we read

Hebrews 11: 14, 16 “ For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country…16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Very good.
But the better country and the city is actually God and man mingled together.

I like that you remind me that God has "prepared for them a city."
This goes well indeed with Jesus going to Calvary's cross to accomplish eternal redemption to prepare a place in God
for man.

You see for three years plus they observed God living in Jesus a man as a mutual living house of the Father.
It was too wonderful what they witnessed. Then just before His death He incourages them that if there was only ONE
abode in the Father's house He would have told them so from the beginning. But through His eternal redemption
He prepares a place for them also in this mingling, this union, this blending of divinity with humanity.

Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me.
In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:1,2)

He would have told them of this exclusion of man from this relationship of organic union and mingling of God and man.
They believe into God and should also believe into Him. For He goes to remove the barriers of God's righteous demand, God's demand for glory on man and God's requirement of holiness before God as life may enter into our being and we be brought into this living house.

The thought of Jesus going to spend 2,000 years to fix up mansions or houses in heaven should be dropped.
And Hebrews which you nicely pointed to says that the redeemed are the house of the God.

But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house, whose house we are . . . (Hebrews 3:6a)

So the building of dwelling place of God is God building Himself into redeemed humanity and building
redeemed man into Himself.

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:20-22)

 

[Qubit]

Interesting thread @oikonomia . I will have to read through it before posting too much.

I have been studying Pillars lately and found that a lot of your information matches with mine. If we continue with your theme of being Pillars in New Jerusalem, we discover something that may shock some Christians...

1 Samuel 2:8
"He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’S, and he hath set the world upon them."

Before we become Pillars in New Jerusalem, we were Pillars in the Underworld first. Earth was set on top of us. Most will not understand as they are too indoctrinated into false dogma.

This is why He presented Himself
in the form of "the tree of life" - good for food.

The Tree of Life is not Jesus. The Tree of Life is a 'her'...

Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

Yeilding a 'Fruit' every month is symbolic of a menstrual cycle. In other words, the Tree of Life are representative of Ovary. Said Ovary are fertilized by the Lamb's Water of Life (seminal fluid) proceeding from the Father on the masculine 'phallic' throne...

Revelation 22:1
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

Once the 'Fruit' are fertilized, the Redeemed partake to become conceived (Born Again) into the Glorified Body. Thus, New Jerusalem is representative of the womb of the Mother...

Galatians 4:26
"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

So basically, we are looking at Abraham (Father figure) and Sarah (Mother figure) joining in marriage so that we all become Abraham's Seed (Lamb)...

Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The Throne Room is Abraham's Bosom (Paradise/Third Heaven). When New Jerusalem (Sarah's womb) descends, the two become One. The marriage is consummated.

Note that the opposite happened in the Garden of Eden. The Forbidden Fruit was another Mother, or another Covenant that gendereth to bondage.

I will stop there for now.