Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

oikonomia

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Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.
 

sandman

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Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.
The closest verse that states something like that is …

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We (believers) are in the heavenly realm in Christ (spiritually) as part of the one body.

But

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After
the gathering together unto Him... it says …. so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It does not say in heaven ….We may spend a little time there…. but as far as I can tell by reading the end of Revelation… our digs are going to be on the new earth.
 
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oikonomia

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The closest verse that states something like that is …

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Thankyou.

Now the translation supplies "us" in that passage. That would include Paul the writer of the epistle.
Was Paul literally in heaven when he wrote Ephesians? Neither the writer Paul nor his audience the saints in
the city of Ephesus were literally in heaven sitting there.

If this is the closest verse teaching "going to heaven" in the Bible it is far from conclusive.

We (believers) are in the heavenly realm in Christ (spiritually) as part of the one body.
Now I am all for this statement, that we believers in Christ are (or ahould be) in a heavenly realm in our
spirit. In our innermost spiritual being we are one with a heavenly realm. That we can see.

That because we are "one spirit" with the Lord and He is in heaven, I can see part of our being is in touch
with a heavenly atmosphere and transcendent above all realm.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)
The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. (Rom. 8:16)


Why do we not rather stress to fellow believers that we are "one spirit" with the Lord?
Why do we not stress more that the Lord in heaven is with our spirit?

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)

Indeed the Apostle Paul's prayer was not that we go to heaven. It was that we be strengthened INTO that heavenly realm
in our "inner man" our regenerated human spirit.

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, . . .
That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, (See Eph. 3:14-16)

It is degradation to take the lazy way to emphasize instead the flimsy idea of "going to heaven."
This is sweet candy in place of healthy teaching.
Christian should instead be taught how to be strengthened into thier spirit in the inner man
that Christ may make His home in our hearts for the building up of His Body the church.

The rest of Paul petitition for the Ephesians and all the rest of us is . . .
That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God.

But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,

To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Eph. 3:16-21)


But

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This passage says "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air".
If the Lord is near the surface of the earth "in the clouds" and He catches up Christians to be with Him, that says nothing about
going to heaven.


It will be wonderful for Christ to be near the earth and catch up His people in the clouds to be with Him.
But that is not going to heaven but to the clouds hovering over the surface of the earth.

Some may assume to be with the Lord then always means He takes them back to heaven.
However it doesn't say specifically that He takes them BACK with Him from the clouds to heaven.

Rather His next move is to come down to the earth for His millennial kingdom.

After the gathering together unto Him... it says …. so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It does not say in heaven ….We may spend a little time there…. but as far as I can tell by reading the end of Revelation… our digs are going to be on the new earth.
Thankyou. I agree.
Way too much talk there is about "going to heaven" which is the lazy way of "sweet candy" of natural religious concepts
instead of healthy teaching about being one spirit with the Lord and being energized into that real for the building of God's house.
 
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oikonomia

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Is there anyone else who can show a teaching of "going to heaven" as an eternal destiny is
God's plan in the Bible?

If not then this leaven which leavens the healthy New Testament teaching should be dropped corrected.
Instead we should experience more and teach more about building the church by being stengthened into the inner man
that all the dimensions of Christ may be known.

May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God.

But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,

To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen. (Eph. 3:28-32)

The riches of Christ's are as vast as the universe.

How broad is "the breadth"? It is infinite.
How long is "the length"? It too is infinite.

These are the endless dimensions of the universe itself- endless.

How high is "the height" of His love? Infintely high would be the answer.
How deep is "the depth" of His love? Nothing shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

So for the building of the house of God God intends that being strengthened into this heavenly realm of our
inner man, we may be filled unto all the fullness of God.

But poor Christianity instead is still harping on "going to heaven."
May the eyes of our hearts be enlightened.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.
I believe " paradise " , used by Jesus Christ of Nazareth , most likely brings "heaven" to one's mind. Of course we know the formal name will be " New Jerusalem " .
Blessings.
 
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oikonomia

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Doesn't the bible says God will descend form heaven, with the city too and all, and he will live with us in a heavenly earth? forgive me if i'm mistaken..
The eyes of our hearts need to be enlightened to see New Jerusalem is not a place to which we are going.
Rather it is a living entity which we are becomming through transformation.

Concerning the sign in Revelation of a city which descends out of heaven from God, our destiny is to living parts of that living city.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev. 3:12)

This promise is that the overcoming one who grasps that we are more than conquerors (Rom. 8:37) through Christ.
To be made a pillar in the temple / city means to be an organic living part and component of the temple / city.

The natural mind still unenlightenly imagines a physical city with a physical pillar of some precious substance.
The mind in the light understands the promise is to be transformed into one glorified person thoroughly built into
the church to support the living house of God. God's salvation so operates in his being that "he shall by no means go out anymore".

The New Jerusalem therefore is not a physical city but a living house of God made up of transformed, conformed and glorified human
beings (the saints). Can't you see that this matter of becomming the temple and dwelling place of God in Revelation is the same revelation
of what Paul wrote in Ephesians?

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:19-22)

Where is poor Christianity? Are they with this revelation?
Sadly millions still consider the church as a stone edifice to which they go.
And they remain drugged with the stupifying thought if "going to heaven".

Rather both church local and the church universal are the living house of God.
We need to allow His salvation to so build us up in divine life and oneness to be dwelling place of God in spirit.
And to become pillar in the temple of My God, . . . the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (Rev. 3:12)

Thankyou NRB.
 
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oikonomia

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To no more go out of the temple being a pillar
must mean to be strenthened into the inner man, the spirit, so as to
live there and stay there with others so strengthened.

1.) The house of God is the dwelling place of God in the regenerated human spirit.

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:22)

2.) Paul's petition to the Father was that we would be strengthened INTO that realm.

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, . . . That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, (See Eph. 3:14-17)

Therefore to build God's dwelling place in spirit we must know our spirit and let Him engergize us to
live in that realm going out no more. This that Christ may make His home in our hearts- our emotion, mind, will, and conscience.

We must "by faith" believe the faithful Triune God will so transform us and indwell us as His dwelling place.
That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, . . .
 
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oikonomia

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I believe " paradise " , used by Jesus Christ of Nazareth , most likely brings "heaven" to one's mind. Of course we know the formal name will be " New Jerusalem " .
Blessings.
But do you believe this is what should come to mind?

The issue is what SHOULD come to mind rather than what typically does.

The New Jerusalem is composed of transformed and glorified people.
The Lord's promise to the overcomers in the church of brotherly love, Philadelphia,
was that He would make them a living part of the New Jerusalem, pillars.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, . . . the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name. (See Rev. 3:12)

Therefore what should come to mind when we think of New Jerusalem is a living and organic mingling of divinity and humanity.
And instead of going in and out we are made to stay in this divine combination and become pillars there going no more out.

Do you believe that when Jesus told the dying believing thief that today he would be in Paradise meant
that day he would go to New Jerusalem? I do not believe the Lord Jesus meant that.

Through sanctification, transformation, conformation, resurrection and glorification men and women
become the New Jerusalem.

We have a foretaste of being "there" as we are built up in the normal church life.
For we "have come" already to the city of the living God.

But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, to the universal gathering; (Heb. 12:22)

Thankyou.
 
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Clare73

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Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.
It's simply where we saw Jesus go when he left this earth, he went upward in the sky.
 
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oikonomia

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It's simply where we saw Jesus go when he left this earth, he went upward in the sky.
Yes, there is heaven. And the Bible tells us that His disciples witnessed Jesus ascending up on a cloud.
And the Bible says He will return physically to earth as they saw Him leave.

Where in the Bible though does it say God wants all the saved to go there and be there
in heaven forever?

We were taught to pray "Thy kingdom come" rather than "Thy kingdom go."

"Going to heaven" has become a leavening tradition that has corrupted the unleavened
food of the pure Gospel of God.

Those who might know better simply go along with what is traditional and
use the related phrases "go to heaven" or "going to heaven" or "be in heaven."

We through transformation are going to be God manifest in the flesh, the great mystery of
godliness.

Thankyou.
 
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oikonomia

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Paul visits Paradise in the 3rd Heaven, a standard Jewish location of Paradise among several heavens;
and Jesus teaches that we go to Paradise when we die.
The problem with that is that Paul didn't tell us he went up to Paradise.

I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I do not know, or outside the body I do not know; God knows) such a one was caught away to the third heaven.

And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows),

That he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak.
(2 Cor. 12:2-4)

Paul says he was caught away to these places. That he is speaking of two places is reasonable- the third heaven high above and Paradise below. The conjunction "and" is a strong indication that he was speaking of two experiences.
Therefore to his mind the 3rd Heaven was not the same as Paradise.

Jesus and the believing thief on the day they died went to be in the heart of the earth which Jesus said Paradise was.
It is the same Greek word used in
Acts 8:39 for Phillip the evangelist being caught away.
It is also the same word used in 1 Thess. 4:17 for the believers being caught away together meet the Lord in the clouds.

And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Jesus did not go to the 3rd Heaven the day He died. He did not spend three days in the 3rd Heaven.

For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
Jesus taught that He would die and spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Paradise that Jesus went to was a pleasant section of Hades. And this corresponds the poor
Lazarus in Luke 16:22-23, 25 being in Hades in a pleasant section called "Abraham's bosom."
Across an impassible gulf in which the unpleasnt section of Hades was where the rich man was in
the torment of flames. Abraham and the punished rich man were able to converse with each other over the divide.


I would mention the Paradise in Revelation 2:7 in another post.

What verse would you point to to demonstrate that now, today any people are in the 3rd Heaven?
Thankyou.
 
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oikonomia

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. . . Jesus teaches that we go to Paradise when we die.
I have shown above that the Paradise that the dying thief went to with Jesus was not heaven.
That Paradise is beneath us where there is a pleasant section called "Abraham's Bosom" and
a punishing unpleasant section. All there await the resurrection.

The believing thief and Lazarus and all who die in Christ are in the pleasant section awaiting the resurrection.
They are not in the 3rd Heaven above but in the Paradise "in the heart of the earth."

The unbelievers are in the unpleasant section of Hades.
 
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Clare73

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The problem with that is that Paul didn't tell us he went up to Paradise.
I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I do not know, or outside the body I do not know; God knows) such a one was caught away to the third heaven.
And I know such a man (whether in the body or outside the body, I do not know; God knows),
That he was caught away into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to speak.
(2 Cor. 12:2-4)
Paul says was caught away to these places. That he is speaking of two places is reasonable- the third heaven high above and Paradise below. The conjunction "and" is a strong indication that he was speaking of two experiences.
Therefore to his mind the 3rd Heaven was not the same as Paradise.
Jesus and the believing thief on the day they died went to be in the heart of the earth which Jesus said Paradise was.
It is the same Greek word used in
Acts 8:39 for Phillip the evangelist being caught away.
It is also the same word used in 1 Thess. 4:17 for the believers being caught away together meet the Lord in the clouds.
And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Jesus did not go to the 3rd Heaven the day He died. He did not spend three days in the 3rd Heaven.
For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
Jesus taught that He would die and spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The Paradise that Jesus went to was a pleasant section of Hades. And this corresponds the poor
Lazarus in Luke 16:22-23, 25 being in Hades in a pleasant section called "Abraham's bosom."
Actually, Lazarus was not in Hades, he was in Abraham's bosom, it is the rich man who was in Hades (Lk 16:23).

In the OT, the holding place of the dead was called Sheol, not Hades, which consisted of two places: Paradise (Abraham's bosom), the place of blessing, and Hades, the place of punishment.
Across an impassible gulf in which the unpleasnt section of Hades was where the rich man was in
the torment of flames. Abraham and the punished rich man were able to converse with each other over the divide.


I would mention the Paradise in Revelation 2:7 in another post.

What verse would you point to to demonstrate that now, today any people are in the 3rd Heaven?
Thankyou.
 
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oikonomia

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Actually, Lazarus was not in Hades, he was in Abraham's bosom, it is the rich man who was in Hades (Lk 16:23).

In the OT the holding place of the dead was called Sheol, not Hades, which consisted of two places: Paradise (Abraham's bosom), the place of blessing, and Hades, the place of punishment.

Luke 16:23 does not say Lazarus was not in Hades speecifically, but I think he was there.
It says specifically And the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom; (Luke 23:16a)

That is not enough to prove he did not go to a place in Hades.
You could have two people who are taken somewhere each.
Person A was taken to Pennsylvania.
Person B landed in the United States.

It is not enough information there to prove that Pennsylvania is not part of the United States.
Now consider the entire verse 16.

And the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom.


This too is not enough information for you to insist that "Abraham's bosom" could not be a part of "Hades."

The picture I get is that the rich man's soul simply dropped unimpeded into Hades at burial.
But Lazarus's soul was intercepted from the average consequence and carried by angels to safety "Abraham's bosom."

If the departed humans are in two places entirely then I would think that in the final
resurrection of all the dead in Revelation 20:13 would not say
and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them;
Rather it would say "death and Hades and Abraham's bosom gave up the dead which were in them".

The dead in the sea in that passage probably refers not to dead humans but dead beings who are today's demons.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works.

I also might expect Revelation 1:18 to mention that Christ had not only the key to death and Hades but the key also
to Abraham's bosom where some of the dead who are not in Hades are. As it stands it only mentions death and Hades.

And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev. 1:18)


What passage if any would you point to to prove that today, now there are people in heaven?
Or would you not want to say any such passage/s exist?
 
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Clare73

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Luke 16:23 does not say Lazarus was not in Hades.
It says specifically And the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom; (Luke 23:16a)

That is not enough to prove he did not go to a place in Hades.
You must know Jewish thinking regarding the after life to understand the parable.

Hades, the place of punishment, was one of two places in Sheol (the holding place of the dead), the other place being Paradise (Abraham's bosom), the place of blessing.
 
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oikonomia

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You must know Jewish thinking regarding the after life to understand the parable.

Hades, the place of punishment, was one of two places in Sheol (the holding place of the dead), the other place being Paradise (Abraham's bosom), the place of blessing.
Well there is extrabiblical literature which may hold this concept.
But what the God inspired canon of the New Testament says is what is more important to me.

If in the New Testament Hades was an exclusive place in which ONLY punishment occured then
I have to believe that the patriarch David was in Hades being punished.

For David says . . .
Therefore my heart was made glad and my tongue exulted; moreover, also my flesh will rest in hope,
Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You permit Your Holy One to see corruption. (See Acts 2:25-27)

Are you ready then to teach that the patriarch David died and his soul went to be punished in Hades ?
 
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Der Alte

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You must know Jewish thinking regarding the after life to understand the parable.
Hades, the place of punishment, was one of two places in Sheol (the holding place of the dead), the other place being Paradise (Abraham's bosom), the place of blessing.

GEHENNA (Hebr.
V05p582001.jpg
; Greek, Γέεννα):​

By: Kaufmann Kohler, Ludwig Blau


Nature and Situation.
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell.
 
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Clare73

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Well there is extrabiblical literature which may hold this concept.
But what the God inspired canon of the New Testament say is what is more important to me.

If in the New Testament Hades was an exclusive place in which ONLY punishment occured then
I have to believe that the patriarch David was in Hades being punished.

For David says . . .

Therefore my heart was made glad and my tongue exulted; moreover, also my flesh will rest in hope,
Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You permit Your Holy One to see corruption. (See Acts 2:25-27)

Are you ready then to teach that the patriarch David died and his soul went to be punished in Hades ?
Okay, so that is where the problem is.

There is confusion and textual mistranslation of "Hades" in the NT, maybe taken from the hasty translation of the Septuagint.
The Greek "Hades" of Ac 2:25-27 is from Ps 16:10, where the Hebrew word is "Sheol" (holding place of the dead; i.e., grave).
In Ac 2:25-27, Peter is declaring that Ps 16:10 prophesied of Christ, whom death could not hold in the grave, that he would not see corruption.

In Jesus usage of Hades (e.g., Rev 1:18) and in Rev 6:8, 20:13, 14, it refers to the temporary place of the doomed, the permanent place being Gehenna.
 
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