To “hell” with God’s Image?

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

When man uses a word like "perfect", he uses it subjectively. When he says "this is perfect", he subjectively describes something, someone, some place, or some circumstance that could be refuted by another as imperfect. Of course his refutation would be just as subjective as the one who made the claim of "perfect."

If the word "perfect" could ever be applied objectively, which no refutation could ever be made, though it may be made in vain but it would not be sustainable because the thing claimed to be perfect is indeed perfect and thus beyond refutation, then that word "perfect" would describe God, for God is objectively perfect.

God is perfectly righteous. God is perfectly just. God is perfectly loving. We are none of those.

No argument from me brother …

If everyone from the beginning were perfectly righteous, just, and loving, no one would ever be punished, there'd be sin, no death, and we would be living in perfectly objective bliss relative to the knowledge and nature of good and evil.

If Adam, the first of all creatures made in the image of and after the likeness of God, was perfect in all his ways before he sinned, why would God sentence HIS own likeness and image to death for just one act of disobedience?

Answer: God is perfect and HIS commands are perfect and without refutation. God commands that we be perfect as HE is perfect in all our ways according to His commands. We have no right to disobey God's commands and be free from punishment when we disobey. God in fact forewarns of punishment for not doing HIS will. But God, in HIS perfection, created us with moral free agency to behave outside of God's will, notwithstanding the penalty for not doing HIS will. How can a perfect God be so? It's God's perfection that you question with the faculties of an oh so imperfect mind of man.

Sorry, I never questioned God’s perfection … not sure from my thread or any of my replies, where you gleaned such an idea?

The penalty for Adam's sin was death, but not immediate physical death. Adam's immediate death was spiritual, which resulted in his separation from the communion he had with God in the garden; his physical death some 900 plus years later. From all that the Bible tells us, Adam was obedient to God's other command: be fruitful and multiply, and we learn that Adam likely told his children and grandchildren etc that God was going to put an end to sin and death and restore the communion man once had with God, all through the seed of the woman. We see this through the Genesis narrative.

Accordingly, the faithful children of Adam cried out to God for the redeemer, for they saw the evil continually on the earth, and the faithful know that their redeemer lives. But those who do evil and reject the very notion that there is a God, God, in HIS absolute perfection, allows them that reject HIM to be able to live and enjoy their lives rejecting HIM, and, upon physical death, enjoy an eternal separation from the ONE they never wanted to be near in the first place. They lived as unrepentant reprobates and died as unrepentant reprobates.

God warns us that the punishment for rejecting the ONE who created you is eternal. If that eternal punishment is separation into absolute darkness where all that is known is weeping and gnashing of teeth, or whether it is eternally in the lake if fire where the worm never dies and thirst is never quenched, it is by the perfect decree of a perfect God that it be so.

May the Lord our God bless you and keep you and shine HIS face upon you. In the mighty holy holy holy and precious name of Jesus. Amen, amen.

Thank you for replying to my thread and “May the Lord our God bless you and keep you and shine HIS face upon you. In the mighty holy holy holy and precious name of Jesus. Amen, amen.”

blessings

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Philipians, 2:7
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Likeness here is resemblance. This does not diminish His sacrifice for us. Contrarily it emphasizes the degree and depth of commitment, the unshakable love He has for us to put on this human form.

All men are sinners
Romans, 3:23
23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

He was/is sinless
1 Peter 2:22
Who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;

2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

He had no earthly father
Matt, 1:20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet:
23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child!
She will give birth to a son,
and they will call him Immanuel,
which means ‘God is with us.’”

The demons recognized Him
“What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Did You come here to torment us before the time?”

John The Baptist recognized Him
John, 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, ‘Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, “A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.”

John, 14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I go to prepare a place for you
John, 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

He was the Word of God on earth
John, 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Satan knew Him which is why he tempted Him
Matt,11:6
For it is written:
‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’

He is the mediator between man and God
John 14:13-14
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John 14:13-14
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John, 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The good news is that
16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The good news is the story of the Son of God in the flesh performing the act which no man was qualified for since all were sinners. He was the son of no earthly father. He was unblemished. He was the second man Adam being the first. He came to break the curse of death pronounced when first man sinned.

1 Cor, 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

He was filled with Gods Spirit on earth without limit/measure.

John,3:34​

34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without measure to Him. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has placed all things into His hand.

As for your statement concerning Thomas, Christ was still wearing a human body. He had not yet ascended.

I didn't really proofread this, but I think it is enough. If not... Go with God​

Hey again brother .. so much of what you have written I agree. But I’m not sure how to apply everything you have written to the questions in my thread? Regardless, it seems we only disagree if The Christ was truly man or just appeared as a man. That is for another discussio.

blessings

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

First off: What "image" of God have we taken on? It seems to be in contrast to other animals.
Could God take His image in us back, before our being destined to hell?

Hi bling and thanks for chiming in on the discussion. The truth of man being created in the image of God is simply undisputed. Look up the word image and a plethora of verses, in both old and New Testament, will solidify this biblical, but not extremely well understood truth.

You bring up the huge topic of Atonement:
Think about this: If God forgives your sins 100% than there is nothing to pay for and if your sins are 100% paid for there is nothing to forgive.

As an introduction:
Could you say: “If a person continues to rejects Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child is kept from entering the Kingdom and being with his Father?”

Could you also say: “If a person accepts Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with his father?”

Since “Christ gave His Life as a ransom for many”, can you say: “Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the “ransom payment”?

Deity is making a huge sacrificial “ransom payment” as Peter would say, “much greater than silver or gold”, to release a child to enter the Kingdom, but not all children enter the Kingdom, so who or what is holding them back?

Some people say and think, what holds a person back out of the kingdom is: Satan, God, death, sin, evil, or really nothing, but do not put the blame where it belongs, on the person themselves. If you do not choose to accept the ransom, how could you enter the Kingdom?

The huge sacrificial payment (greater than silver and gold) is very much like what you would expect in a kidnapping scenario and a kidnapping scenario needs a criminal kidnapper unjustly demanding a huge ransom. Why doesn’t every kidnapper accept this huge payment?

Since this huge sacrificial payment is totally undeserved and God does not owe a thing to the kidnapper, the ransom payment is like a “gift” to the kidnapper.

People will do almost anything to avoid having to humbly accept pure charity as charity. People seem to like being “loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not as criminal kidnappers.

The “ransom” lots of people are wanting and might be told is being offered is some very carnal reward (like the Muslim man wanting 72 virgins to have relationships with throughout eternity) and not forgiveness, Love, fellowship, hardship, a huge challenge and discipline.

This kidnapper rejecting or accepting the ransom payment must become the child which can go into the kingdom, so they cannot be separated. The kidnapper has to “change” (be born again as a child of God.)

Satan is certainly undeserving and God owes him nothing, but why would God gift Satan with anything?

If Satan had anything God wanted, God could simply just take it, so no need for Christ to go to the cross.

Saying: “Satan is the kidnapper”, just elevates Satan to being on an equal plain with God.

God is not an undeserving kidnapper.

To say there is no kidnapper removes the ransoming analogy, and yet Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews all describe it as a literal ransoming.

The Old Testament describes the temple tax and paying for a slave’s freedom, as being ransom payments, but in the first century context paying kidnappers a ransom payment was very common and even Julious Ceasar was kidnapper and ransomed.

What are the benefits from thinking and seeing the unbelieving sinner as the kidnapper?

• It gives an excellent reason for why not everyone’s sins are atoned for.
• It breaks out the atonement sacrifice from the whole atonement process.
• It provides a part for the sinner in the atonement process, making it very participative for the sinner.
• It explains how the atonement process is a ransoming.
• It goes along with the analogy of first becoming a child to enter the Kingdom.
• It gives logical alternatives to the wrong choices for the unbeliever.
• It introduces the idea of us having to accept something.

The Kidnapping Scenario does not define atonement, eliminate other atonement theories as add-ons, nor explain what the sinner is accepting, so we need to look further.

I’m really sorry man but I’m just not able to understand what all you are saying above and how it relates to my two original questions? But again, thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts with me.

blessings

 

[Clare73]

1). If God made man in His own image, why would He send any of His Image bearers to

Among other things (immortal spirit, rationality, morality), the image of God included righteousness, holiness and knowledge of him (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10), which last three man lost.

Now he is left with a human nature contrary to God, as well as a desire to be sovereign.

Only by faith in the person and atoning work of his Son Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin are those things restored and man brought to peace with God again.

 

[bling]

Hi bling and thanks for chiming in on the discussion. The truth of man being created in the image of God is simply undisputed. Look up the word image and a plethora of verses, in both old and New Testament, will solidify this biblical, but not extremely well understood truth.

I am not questioning man being created in God's image, but what does that mean. I feel it expresses the idea of: Humans having some limited free will ability (this is different from all other animals), so man can truly be like God in that man can have Godly type Love and fulfill man's earthly objective, but what do you think it means?

I’m really sorry man but I’m just not able to understand what all you are saying above and how it relates to my two original questions? But again, thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts with me.

blessings

Just answer the questions, they relate to what Christ did.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Among other things (immortal spirit, rationality, morality), the image of God included righteousness, holiness and knowledge of him (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10), which last three man lost.

Now he is left with a human nature contrary to God, as well as a desire to be sovereign.

Only by faith in the person and atoning work of his Son Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin are those things restored and man brought to peace with God again.

Hi Clare73. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Exactly what ”all” is encompassed in our being created in the image of God, I am not sure. However, we know that it was good. Unquestionably, that image was marred. To what degree? Only God truly knows. But I don’t believe that image was completely eradicated by sin.

Now, I’m pretty sure you would agree with me that our Lord Jesus, according to Hebrews 1:3: “His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance (substance poor choice, God IS Spirit, not substance) and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”

Nevertheless, I believe image bearers we are in our placement in Adam; and with that image a Name is represented/reflected by that image. The command to not make any graven image is for their own protection and more importantly they carry/reflect the Name of God. He will not share His glory with another …

This is why I cannot see God eternally condemning His image bearers to hell, if there were a hell. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 11:7 refers to man as “the image and glory of God. As God’s Name is embedded in His image and man is, at least in part, I cannot see Him allowing His Name being glorified by His image bearers in hell.

My other question, concerning The Christ suffering the consequences of man’s disobedience, is designed to clarify what was suffered, by our Lord Jesus on our behalf. At this point and time in my walk of faith, I am persuaded He endured the full force of what it meant in God’s warning to Adam. Physical death and spiritual separation from God. It seems to me, as long as man remains in an unregenerate state, he is and will remain physically and spiritually dead until the resurrection. After which, all those who are not under the protection of the blood, will need to experience for himself the sufferings The Christ endured. I’m interested in your take on the atonement and the sufferings endured to procure man’s salvation.

 

[Ace777]

Because He has the keys.

You mean like when science tells us bacon is bad for us, then tells us bacon is good for us, then tells us bacon is bad for us, then ...

They did that with eggs not bacon.

1 Samuel 2:12 Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial

That is fine, I have no problem with KJV only. But how can you pass up the watered down NIV that says Eli’s sons were scoundrels? You do not like the cute translations of the Bible?

If we listened to today's science, we'd all be atheists.

Science is agnostic by definition. Scientists can have personal beliefs if they want. The Godless scientists usually end up getting proven they were wrong. I got in a lot of trouble with that guy that had amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) when I said his thinking was as messed up as his body was.

In 1975, cosmologist Stephen Hawking bet fellow cosmologist Kip Thorne a subscription to Penthouse for Thorne against four years of Private Eye for him that Cygnus X-1 would turn out to not be a black hole. In 1990, Hawking acknowledged that he had lost the bet.

He used to make guest appearances on popular TV programs. Like everyone else he just wants to sell his books so he can stuff money in his pocket. I should write books but maybe no one would want to read them.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

-
​

Look at the great white throne judgment the dead are sent (cast in) to the lake of fire when their name is not found in the Book of Life.

Why is their name not in the Book of Life, because these people never believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

What does this mean
Therefore, I can only conclude that the Life Jesus gives is only obtained through man through His death. If I choose death then I choose the death that the Son of God Experienced. Now that is one terrifying thought …

Hi d Taylor I’m sorry I forget to reply to your question. I highlighted “Through” … it should be “by” man through His death. Sorry,
I was trying to say I can’t separate the Life Giver (Jesus) from the means (death/resurrection) by which the Life Giver obtained our redemption. I see them as inseparable from one another just as I see the image of God and the Name of God the image reflects are inseparable. Hope that clarifies my statement.

The Life Jesus is offering people is obtained at the very moment of belief in Jesus. A person does not wait till they die to be given The Life of God.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The verse above states the believer in Jesus has everlasting life and has passed from death to life. The verse does not say, will after death pass from death to life.

I completely agree with everything you have written above. Why do you think I believed differently?

blessings

 

[Clare73]

Hi Clare73. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Exactly what ”all” is encompassed in our being created in the image of God, I am not sure. However, we know that it was good. Unquestionably, that image was marred. To what degree? Only God truly knows. But I don’t believe that image was completely eradicated by sin.

Now, I’m pretty sure you would agree with me that our Lord Jesus, according to Hebrews 1:3: “His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance (substance poor choice, God IS Spirit, not substance)

"Substance" = that which constitutes (forms or makes up) anything that it is.
The constitution of spirit is spiritual substance, not material substance.

So "the Son is. . .the very image of God's substance." (In the Greek it reads: "the representation of his reality," where "reality" is substance.)

and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
Nevertheless, I believe image bearers we are in our placement in Adam; and with that image a Name is represented/reflected by that image. The command to not make any graven image is for their own protection and more importantly they carry/reflect the Name of God. He will not share His glory with another …
This is why I cannot see God eternally condemning His image bearers to hell,

Then you are in disagreement with Jesus Christ in Jn 3:18, and your issue is simply unbelief.

"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already."

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

"Substance" = that which constitutes (to form or make up) anything that it is.
The constitution of spirit is spiritual substance, not material substance.

Well, seems like YLT begs to differ:
”who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at | Young's Literal Translation 1898 (Y

who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at

bible.com

As does the ESV:
”He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Hebrews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of t | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of t

bible.com

Also the NKJV:
”who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the | New King James Version (NKJV) | Dow

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the

bible.com

One more RSV:
”He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬ ‭RSV‬‬

Hebrews 1:3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty o | Revised Standard Version (RSV) | Do

He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty o

bible.com

In theology terms the difference between substance and subsistence​

is that substance is hypostasis while subsistence is a person, specifically the person of Christ or of another part of the Trinity; hypostasis.As nouns the difference between substance and subsistence is that substance is physical matter; material while subsistence is real being; existence.

Now, read these verses and tell me that substance makes more sense than the other translations: 2 Cor 9:4, 11:7, Hebrews 1:3, 3:14 and 11:1. I’m no scholar brother, but after reading the other four verses and how the same word is used … I most definitely would opt for any of the other translations. Is it not obvious that substance pertains to matter and subsistence pertains to that which makes up the person? My little brain thinks it to be quite foolish and one heck of a leap, to translate substance with so many other accurate options. Substance just seems silly … unless of course there is some underlying need to validate/defend one’s systematic theological persuasion. Dunno …

ὑπόστασις {hoop-os'-tas-is} from a compound of ὑπό and ἵστημι; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively): confidence, confident, person, substance.5

So "the Son is. . .the very image of God's substance."

Then you are in disagreement with Jesus Christ in Jn 3:18, and your issue is simply unbelief.

I’m just grateful my God given faith in Jesus and His completed work on the cross makes your assessment of my ”issue” just that, your assessment. Hmmmmmmm, I wonder whose assessment matters; yours or the Holy Spirit?

"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already."

You see Clare73, you prefer to assign the sentence of the unbeliever, based on your personal bias and theological position; no surprise there. The literal translation of John 3:18 is properly rendered “judgment“ which of course simply means a verdict is rendered either in favor or against the accused. It doesn’t assign the sentence which makes “you” nervous; as well as the judge rather than God. Hope He agrees with your sentence …

blessings

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I am not questioning man being created in God's image, but what does that mean. I feel it expresses the idea of: Humans having some limited free will ability (this is different from all other animals), so man can truly be like God in that man can have Godly type Love and fulfill man's earthly objective, but what do you think it means?

Just answer the questions, they relate to what Christ did.

Hi bling and thanks for chiming in on the discussion. The truth of man being created in the image of God is simply undisputed. Look up the word image and a plethora of verses, in both old and New Testament, will solidify this biblical, but not extremely well understood truth.

I am not questioning man being created in God's image, but what does that mean. I feel it expresses the idea of: Humans having some limited free will ability (this is different from all other animals), so man can truly be like God in that man can have Godly type Love and fulfill man's earthly objective, but what do you think it means?

Hi brother, I apologize for the late reply. I’m also sorry I didn’t get what you were asking. I see the image of God, in mans pre-fall condition, created in wholeness and pronounced good in the following ways:
1). possessing an uncorrupted and unbiased will,
2). possessing a mind in union and harmony with God’s purpose
3). authority over creation with specific rolls and functions within the Garden
4). Reflecting oneness/completeness with his wife like the oneness/completeness of the unity of God.

Note: post fall image is corrupted/marred in all the above with the added responsibility of knowing good from evil but without the knowledge of God. Thus, I see the redemption of mans corrupted image of God only restored in the perfect and completed work of The Christ; restoring man to a unique oneness with God while ensuring His image bearers reflect the Glory of God through all creation.

I’m really sorry man but I’m just not able to understand what all you are saying above and how it relates to my two original questions? But again, thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts with me.

blessings

Just answer the questions, they relate to what Christ did.

As an introduction:
Could you say: “If a person continues to rejects Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child is kept from entering the Kingdom and being with his Father?” YES.

Could you also say: “If a person accepts Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with his father?” YES.

Since “Christ gave His Life as a ransom for many”, can you say: “Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the “ransom payment”?

YES.
Note: if the many you are referring to, is the many found in Roman’s chapter 5, then the many is not being used in a limited sense, but equates to the totality of mankind who died in Adam, thus the same many is applied to the redemptive work of The Christ and thus the totality the many for is applied for whom The Christ died.

Deity is making a huge sacrificial “ransom payment” as Peter would say, “much greater than silver or gold”, to release a child to enter the Kingdom, but not all children enter the Kingdom, so who or what is holding them back?

The “who“ holding them back is God and the “what“ God is using to hold them back? His will concerning the timing and order of mankind’s oneness in The Christ and the Father.

Some people say and think, what holds a person back out of the kingdom is: Satan, God, death, sin, evil, or really nothing, but do not put the blame where it belongs, on the person themselves. If you do not choose to accept the ransom, how could you enter the Kingdom? You can’t until you are made willing to do so.

PS thank you for the link you provided in your earlier reply; it was interesting, informative and presented in humility.

blessings

 

[bling]

I am not questioning man being created in God's image, but what does that mean. I feel it expresses the idea of: Humans having some limited free will ability (this is different from all other animals), so man can truly be like God in that man can have Godly type Love and fulfill man's earthly objective, but what do you think it means?

Hi brother, I apologize for the late reply. I’m also sorry I didn’t get what you were asking. I see the image of God, in mans pre-fall condition, created in wholeness and pronounced good in the following ways:
1). possessing an uncorrupted and unbiased will,
2). possessing a mind in union and harmony with God’s purpose
3). authority over creation with specific rolls and functions within the Garden
4). Reflecting oneness/completeness with his wife like the oneness/completeness of the unity of God.

Note: post fall image is corrupted/marred in all the above with the added responsibility of knowing good from evil but without the knowledge of God. Thus, I see the redemption of mans corrupted image of God only restored in the perfect and completed work of The Christ; restoring man to a unique oneness with God while ensuring His image bearers reflect the Glory of God through all creation.

Thank you for your response, but this will take me lots of words to address:

Man was made “very good”, but that is not “perfect” like Christ is perfect, so why did God not just make perfect clones of Christ?

Christ is not a made being so it is impossible to make a being that is unmade, there are just some things that even God cannot do, since they are truly impossible to do.

What is man lacking which keeps man from starting out “perfect”, like God, since God is Love (totally unselfish, unconditional, compelled by Love), can it be this unique “Love”?

Adam and Eve’s and everyone else’s “objective”:

God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others)?

So if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would he be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

Has God given man a mission statement? (this is always good to have)

Would “Loving God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy” be our Mission statement?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us (a shotgun wedding) since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it.

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

“The image of God” would thus be the ability to fulfill the objective.

Just answer the questions, they relate to what Christ did.

As an introduction:
Could you say: “If a person continues to rejects Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child is kept from entering the Kingdom and being with his Father?” YES.

Could you also say: “If a person accepts Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with his father?” YES.

Since “Christ gave His Life as a ransom for many”, can you say: “Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the “ransom payment”?

YES.
Note: if the many you are referring to, is the many found in Roman’s chapter 5, then the many is not being used in a limited sense, but equates to the totality of mankind who died in Adam, thus the same many is applied to the redemptive work of The Christ and thus the totality the many for is applied for whom The Christ died.

Deity is making a huge sacrificial “ransom payment” as Peter would say, “much greater than silver or gold”, to release a child to enter the Kingdom, but not all children enter the Kingdom, so who or what is holding them back?

The “who“ holding them back is God and the “what“ God is using to hold them back? His will concerning the timing and order of mankind’s oneness in The Christ and the Father.

God holding His own children back (being the virtual undeserving criminal kidnapper) makes no scene and takes the fault totally away from man himself (we get to blame God?).

Some people say and think, what holds a person back out of the kingdom is: Satan, God, death, sin, evil, or really nothing, but do not put the blame where it belongs, on the person themselves. If you do not choose to accept the ransom, how could you enter the Kingdom? You can’t until you are made willing to do so.

That again makes no sense. God can just as easily make all humans “willing”, while the person themselves is not willing to humbly accept God’s charity as charity, but the blame on man and not God.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Bling said “God holding His own children back (being the virtual undeserving criminal kidnapper) makes no scene and takes the fault totally away from man himself (we get to blame God?).”

My reply: I’m not sure how you equate what I said with blaming God?

“The “who“ holding them back is God and the “what“ God is using to hold them back? His will concerning the timing and order of mankind’s oneness in The Christ and the Father.”

By the way … the words in the box below containing my name are not my words my friend, they are yours.

Some people say and think, what holds a person back out of the kingdom is: Satan, God, death, sin, evil, or really nothing, but do not put the blame where it belongs, on the person themselves. If you do not choose to accept the ransom, how could you enter the Kingdom? You can’t until you are made willing to do so.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Thank you for your response, but this will take me lots of words to address:

Man was made “very good”, but that is not “perfect” like Christ is perfect, so why did God not just make perfect clones of Christ?

Agreed on the perfection of Christ … Because there is only one begotten Son of God

Christ is not a made being so it is impossible to make a being that is unmade, there are just some things that even God cannot do, since they are truly impossible to do.

Agreed … I think?

What is man lacking which keeps man from starting out “perfect”, like God, since God is Love (totally unselfish, unconditional, compelled by Love), can it be this unique “Love”?

Man is created and God is the Self Existing One who IS LOVE … LIGHT … and SPIRIT, all of which we, His mage bearers receive from Him when He imparts to us His Spirit.

Adam and Eve’s and everyone else’s “objective”:

God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

I’m going with 1st Corinthians 13 for LOVE defined and measured by the Person of Jesus Christ; demonstrated through His Life, death and resurrection.

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others)?

I think I understand your heart in this statement above but Colossions 1:6 informs us differently, “For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

So if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would he be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

Has God given man a mission statement? (this is always good to have)

Would “Loving God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy” be our Mission statement?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us (a shotgun wedding) since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it.

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

“The image of God” would thus be the ability to fulfill the objective.

God holding His own children back (being the virtual undeserving criminal kidnapper) makes no scene and takes the fault totally away from man himself (we get to blame God?).

I don’t agree … Jesus stated the following in Mark 4:11-12

”And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”“
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭RSV‬‬

Again, it is about the Lords will as He directs the perfect timing and order in mankind’s redemption. See 1st Corinthians 15.

That again makes no sense. God can just as easily make all humans “willing”, while the person themselves is not willing to humbly accept God’s charity as charity, but the blame on man and not God.

I know you are communicating with your heart and you obviously love the Lord. I just can’t follow your train of thought completely. Love IS the greatest of faith, hope and love because faith and hope are resolved in God’s Kingdom but love is eternal because God IS LOVE.

blessings

 

[Clare73]

Well, seems like YLT begs to differ:
”who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,“

The Greek word in Heb 1:3 is hupostasis (substance).
"Substance" and "subsistence" are not the same word.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The Greek word in Heb 1:3 is hupostasis (substance).
"Substance" and "subsistence" are not the same word.

I’m not disputing the Greek word just the translation. I’m fairly certain Professor Young and the many other translators who chose to translate differently, as I have shown you, also know the Greek word. Their translations, at least to me, make more sense as the word is used in the other pages of Scriptur.

No biggie … we just disagree on the translation of one Greek word.

blessings

 

[Clare73]

I’m not disputing the Greek word just the translation. I’m fairly certain Professor Young and the many other translators who chose to translate differently, as I have shown you, also know the Greek word. Their translations, at least to me, make more sense as the word is used in the other pages of Scriptur.

No biggie … we just disagree on the translation of one Greek word.

The translation of a word can be Biblical or contra-Biblical. . .and that can be a biggie.

 

[bling]

...

 

[bling]

Agreed on the perfection of Christ … Because there is only one begotten Son of God


Agreed … I think?

Man is created and God is the Self Existing One who IS LOVE … LIGHT … and SPIRIT, all of which we, His mage bearers receive from Him when He imparts to us His Spirit.

I’m going with 1st Corinthians 13 for LOVE defined and measured by the Person of Jesus Christ; demonstrated through His Life, death and resurrection.

I think I understand your heart in this statement above but Colossions 1:6 informs us differently, “For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

I don’t agree … Jesus stated the following in Mark 4:11-12

”And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”“
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭RSV‬‬

Again, it is about the Lords will as He directs the perfect timing and order in mankind’s redemption. See 1st Corinthians 15.

First off: Mark 4:11-12

There is a timing issue here, but it is with the time in Jesus’ ministry prior to the cross. Jesus in a very brilliant move uses parable to address the masses about the Kingdom, these are very entertaining, poetic stories, with tons of information about the Kingdom with few words. Those listening could easily remember these stories and would likely retell the story to family and others, thus unwittingly conveying tons of information about the Kingdom. These parables with a hidden parallel Spiritual meaning that at the time would be extremely hard to understand, but after the Kingdom does come on Pentecost and maybe after the person is a part of the kingdom will he/she be able to relate the Parable to the Kingdom they are now a part of.

Jesus did give the Spiritual meaning of the parable to His enter circle, but they did not seem to understand at the time.

1 Cor. 15 is a long chapter and I do not know what point you are making.

I know you are communicating with your heart and you obviously love the Lord. I just can’t follow your train of thought completely. Love IS the greatest of faith, hope and love because faith and hope are resolved in God’s Kingdom but love is eternal because God IS LOVE.

blessings

Love continues in heaven, since there is nothing left for us to “hope” for and faith is replaced by knowledge, we do not just believe, but know. Loving is the media of exchange and the measure of wealth in heaven, God being the wealthiest (LOVE itself).

 

[Der Alte]

"Substance" = that which constitutes (to form or make up) anything that it is.
The constitution of spirit is spiritual substance, not material substance.

So "the Son is. . .the very image of God's substance."

Then you are in disagreement with Jesus Christ in Jn 3:18, and your issue is simply unbelief.

"Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already."

According to the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation. I wonder if they got it wrong. Greek has always been their language.
Heb 1:3 *His Son is the radiance of his glory, the exact counterpart* of his person,’ upholding all things by the word of his power. When he had by himself# made purification for our sins,° he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, *having become much better than the angels as the Name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

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