Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[oikonomia]

I have Randy Alcorn's book: Heaven, [2004]
He makes the case that we never do go to live in heaven, which I agree with. The belief that humans can live there, is false and is in fact; a Satanic lie.
We have the Commission, as per Matthew 28:20 and we must proclaim the Gospel until Jesus Returns.
Then we will live with Him for the Millennium, on earth and after that: God will come to us on the New earth for Eternity Revelation 21:1-7

Thankyou.
I read very carefully your post which I found considerably closer to what the Bible reveals.
I may respond to it.

But the book from Randy Alorn confirms that there are usually some more enlightened evangelicals.
But the market for "Heaven books" is far too many, like a flood feeding the natural religious hunger.
And the going to Heaven songs old and new are numerous.

Some of the older Heaven going songs are more excusable.
The African slaves in America for example were under excruciating suffering.
It is understandable that they picked up on what they heard of the Gospel mainly in that way of total
escape from their unimaginalbe trials to be safe in great mansions in heaven. Ie. "Swing Low Sweet Chariot." Others in history also, I would understand their shortsightedness.

Teachers who I think should know better are passively going along with the heaven going jargon.
They seem not to want to rock the boat. Some of them I believe in their hearts and according to their
learning know better.

 

[oikonomia]

This shows how entrenched the idea of a heavenly life is. But the Bible never says people; the martyrs, will have conscious life in heaven, their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven and they are allowed to cry out at times, thats all. Revelation 6:9-11

We should not go so far to teach no human ever sees heaven temporarily. But that is not my burden here to emphasize that.

Now the ones underneath the altar in the fifth seal must also the ones who are FINALLY vindicated just before the three and one half years.
They ate resurrected and raptured to the throne of God in Heaven. This is in Revelation 12 with the catching up of the manchild to the throne of God. This sets off warfare in heaven in which Satan and his angels are driven down finally to be restricted to the surface of the earth.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels.
And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. (Rev. 12:5-8).

But I now risk a huge distracting disussion taking away from my OP.
Once eschatology is mentioned the tendency for many to plunged into this sideshow (including myself) is more likely.

My main focus is to talk about the vision of the church being verses the superficiality of heaven going.

 

[Clare73]

When I looked up Hades in the Jewish Encyclopedia I was referred to this article.
Sheol (

): By: Emil G. Hirsch -- Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss).—Biblical Data:
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or (Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27), yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein (Ps. lxxxviii. 13, xciv. 17; Eccl. ix. 10). Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence (Ps. vi. 6, xxx. 10, xciv. 17, cxv. 17); and there God is not praised (ib. cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 15). Still, on certain extraordinary occasions the dwellers in Sheol are credited with the gift of making knowntheir feelings of rejoicing at the downfall of the enemy (Isa. xiv. 9, 10). Sleep is their usual lot (Jer. li. 39; Isa. xxvi. 14; Job xiv. 12). Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22);
and Form.
Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss).
—Biblical Data:

Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

Source?

Google - Roetzel discusses a latter-day embellishment to the Septuagint legend, which today probably qualifies as a miracle: Not only did 72 scholars working independently make separate translations in 70 days, but these translations agreed in every detail.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73: "Gehenna was the permanent place of the doomed..."
Jesus' preferred word for "Hell" is the Jewish term "Gehenna," a common term for "Hell" in ancient rabbinic Judaism. So the meaning of this word must be sought in its ancient rabbinic usage. This usage demonstrates that rabbinic "Gehenna" is foundational for the later doctrine of Purgatory. To quote one Jewish site:
"For the most part the rabbis did not believe souls would be condemned to eternal punishment. "The punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months," states Shabbat 33b, while other texts say the time-frame could be anywhere from three to twelve months."
Similarly, Jesus uses the expressions "few blows" and "many blows" to limit postmortem punishment based on how much spiritual knowledge the condemned had in this life (Luke12:47-48). This punitive imagery, especially "few blows," implies a finite limit to postmortem judgment and therefore ultimate release. Accordingly, Jesus uses the image of a debtor's prison to illustrate postmortem punishment in Gehenna, adding "Truly I tell you, you will never get out UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY (Matthew 5:25-26 par. Luke 12:57-59).":un Once the debt is paid, release follows. Here Jesus uses His standard formula, "Truly I say to you," which always applies to our relationship with God, never to secular matters like beating the rap to avoid prison. A similar reference to Gehenna as a debtor's prison is implied in Jesus' parable in which the unforgiving servant is handed over to the torturers only "until he should pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34)." The prospect of postmortem release from Gehenna provides context for Jesus' declaration, "If I am lifted up from the earth , I will draw ALL people to myself (John 12:32)."

The reference to "aionios" punishment" in Matthew 25:46 must be interpreted in the light of this teaching. Sinners remain in "aionios" punishment only as long as they refuse to repent. Remember, "aionios" need not mean "eternal," as various NT examples demonstrate.

Punishment hardens, not softens. There is no repentance in hell.

 

[trophy33]

First is it noted that you did not complete the words of the Lord Jesus in John 3:13.
And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven. [?!?]

The addition in the end you underlined is just in some manuscripts, but its not accepted as original, thats why its not in updated Bible editions.

Because the rest of your argumentation is built on this disputed part of the verse, I do not see it too useful to debate it.

 

[trophy33]

This is a big misconception of the Lord's meaning in John 14. No He is not talking about going to Heaven for two thousand yearsa
to prepare luxurious mansians for the saved. Do you think the Son of God has been hanging chandaliers, unrolling long beautiful rugs,
and hanging curtains "preparing a place" for us in heavenly mansions?

No, I do not think He was preparing rugs, curtains or chandeliers. Heaven is a spiritual place, so the preparation was spiritual. I guess it could have something to do with expelling satan and his angels from heaven, but who knows. Also, I do not think it was 2,000 years, just about 40.

Do you use this to prove our eternal home is up in Heaven?

Yes, if our citizenship is in heaven, our home is in heaven.

Regarding the souls under the altar, most commentaries place it to be undoubtedly in heaven. But its not said explicitly, so we can speculate forever, indeed. Such discord with the symbolism of Revelation is common.

P.S. Let us play a game - who can express his thoughts with less text.

 

[oikonomia]

The addition in the end you underlined is just in some manuscripts, but its not accepted as original, thats why its not in updated Bible editions.

Because the rest of your argumentation is built on this disputed part of the verse, I do not see it too useful to debate it.

I don't think it is accurate that the entire "the rest of off [my] argumentation is built on this disputed part of the verse." (my emphasis)

I am not bluffed that easily. You have no case. That is why you don't bother to try to debate it.
Hiding behind textural criticism you are.

"Come back Shane."

 

[oikonomia]

P.S. Let us play a game - who can express his thoughts with less text.

Ah. There you are.

I know I can be a bit verbose. However I work on being concise believe it or not.
If you care, I think you'll bear with reading carefully what is written.
I do YOU the same service.

Going to Heaven is cotton candy of the soulish mind not the revelation of the NT.

I don't want to cut corners. I want to cut straight the word of God like a good workman.
I want to lay out the case for those who are tired of this cotton candy
may be equiped against the fad of it.

Your response?

 

[oikonomia]

Yes, if our citizenship is in heaven, our home is in heaven.

For argument's sake let's assume "the Son of Man which is in heaven" does not belong in the autograph original text of John 3:13.

So what would that do for you to prove God wants man's eternal destiny to live up there in Heaven ?
How would the elimination of those five words establish your case ?

And why didin't Paul say "our citizenship WILL BE in the heavens" if we physically are not there yet?
And instead of "From which we eagerly await a Savior" why didn't he write "We are going THERE to see our Savior" ?

Wouldn't that be more in accord with your belief of final destiny of going to Heaven?

Where is your teaching that He comes from Heaven (the Savior) to take us back there forever ? Where?
I'm out here on a limb now. So tell me and see if I fall down with the cut limb.

(I'll keep it friendly). Agapa.

 

[Berserk]

In fact, biblical Judaism itself is subject to many cultural shifts and progressive revelation and nowhere enumerates the number of heavens, as Paul and his Jewish contemporaries do.
.

oikonomia: "Who cares?"

Duh, evangelical scholars who inquire into the cultural origin of Paul's concepts care!
Let me make this real simple for you:
(1) Paul's Jewish contemporaries discuss the number and nature of the heavens and the OT does not.
(2) Those Jewish contemporaries locate Paradise in the 3rd Heaven.
(3) So when Paul makes parallel comments about visiting Paradise and the 3rd Heaven, he is agreeing with his contemporaries' location of Paradise within the structure of the Heavens.

oikonomia: "How about we care much more for "born again" leading to growth of God's life in man rather than a tricket to "Admit One" to
Heaven. Many ancient religions ended with man going to a happy place."

How about we care much more about staying on topic. Text Critic B. F. Wescott famously said of anti-academic evangelicals: "The simple Gospel is not so simple as the simple would have you suppose."

 

[oikonomia]

oikonomia: "Who cares?"

Duh, evangelical scholars who inquire into the cultural origin of Paul's concepts care!
Let me make this real simple for you:
(1) Paul's Jewish contemporaries discuss the number and nature of the heavens and the OT does not.
(2) Those Jewish contemporaries locate Paradise in the 3rd Heaven.
(3) So when Paul makes parallel comments about visiting Paradise and the 3rd Heaven, he is agreeing with his contemporaries' location of Paradise within the structure of the Heavens.

Yea.
Now we Christians have a world rotting around our ears if you noticed. And we need the Lord Jesus to come BACK.
The world needs the Lord Jesus to come back as "the Desire of the nations." (Hag. 2:7)

Now this is not a call to be fanatical. It is a call for Christians of all levels of academic learning to WAKE UP and understand
the Lord wants something to come back TO. He needs to come back for something more than just to take out the garbage.

He needs a mature collective woman as a bride who has prepared herself.
He does not want to come back for adolescent pre-teenage girl still paying with "Ken" theological toys.

My library has a respectable amount of scholarly books. Maybe its not as large as yours.
But we need the healthy ministry of spiritual teaching like what Pauk ministered to the proud philosophical Corinthians.

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to announce the gospel, not in wisdom of speech that the cross of Christ may not be made void. (1 Cor. 1:17)
Do you know we can make void the power of our dying with Christ to ourselves robbing the Gospel of its impact?

For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (v.18)

For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of those who understand I will set aside.” (v.17)
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? (v.18)

I don't mean to be anti-intellectual. The Lord needs a army of world wide believers (even if remnant, a Gideon's small army) to
let go of the stupifying cotton candy of superficial teaching and come to live in God's eternal purpose as Paul develops.
The local churches must be FARMS cultivating the growing of Christ in people for the building up of His temple. (chapter 3)

And I, when I came to you, brothers, came not according to excellence of speech or of wisdom, announcing to you the mystery of God.
For I did not determine to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and this One crucified.

And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling;
And my speech and my proclamation were not in persuasive words of wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, (1 Cor. 2:1-4)

What would have fed the Corinthians egos? The Greeks so admired athletic prowness and philosophical talk.
Paul ("little") came to them as no he-man and no Socrates demonstrating the power of dying with Christ by His cross
and living with Him in resurrection power.

We need to woo the Lord back with men and women in countless cities dying to self and living in grace in resurrection life with Christ.
You have seen me us a modest anount of academia when called for in this discussion.

Focus - the desperate need is for Christians to learn to be soak in the Spirit of Christ, steeped in the Spirit of Christ, carrying the fragrance of Him in every place.

Bear with me a bit more.
When I was newly married I slowly got to know that my wife had had a very difficult life in the house of an alcoholic father.

I got to know by our browsing together in Christian books stores. I always gravitated to doctrinal explanation books. And they have their place. My wife always searched through biographies of Christians who passed through very difficult trials of life.
I chided her not thinking such biographies were not as good as doctrinal outlines.

Eventually, I realized because of her desperate need to know how to "get through" daily intense difficulties the practicality
of these testimonials was the encouragement she clung to.

Sisters in Christ are often more subjective and more experiencial.
They can often be deeper and more in touch with walking in His supplying presence.
I do not mean to be anti-academic.

These days the intensity of the degradation surrounding the churching people calls for deeper refuge and clearer governing vision
of God's eternal purpose. Without a vision the people run without restraint.

 

[Clare73]

Yea.
Now we Christians have a world rotting around our ears if you noticed. And we need the Lord Jesus to come BACK.

Now this is not a call to be fanitical. It is a call for Christians of all levels of academic learning to WAKE UP and understand
the Lord wants something to come back TO. He needs to come back for something more than just to take out the garbage.

A lot of fallen human sentiments being projected onto Christ.

Jesus did not come to make the world a better place.
He came to call us out of the decaying world.

He will be coming back to a new earth, the home of righteousness, having first been melted by fire (2 Pe 3:12-13).

 

[oikonomia]

oikonomia: "How about we care much more for "born again" leading to growth of God's life in man rather than a tricket to "Admit One" to
Heaven. Many ancient religions ended with man going to a happy place."

How can I not stand by those words?

Paul said the church was a FARM for planting and watering the divine life in believers.
The ONLY thing that matters is that God causes the growth of Christ in men and women.
To the Corinthians he stressed - the local church as the holy temple of God can only be built on the foundation of Christ
by Christ GROWING, encreasing, spreading in the ones in whom this divine seed of life was planted.

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s cultivated land, God’s building. (1 Cor. 3:9)

Though they complained that Paul had not come to them sounding like their local academic scholars and philosophers,
he said because of their stunted spiritual growth he had to feed them milk and not solid food.

And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to fleshy, as to infants in Christ.
I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you were not yet able to receive it. But neither yet now are you (1 Cor. 3:1,2)

Well Beserk today the cotton candy teaching of going to heaven is not even good "milk".
But it is milk, mostly fleshy minded milk of those imagining such things.

And you are defending such less than healthy "milk" throwing at me academic support ?
That is what is behind my "Who cares?"

The hour is desperate. Sober minded mining of the endless treasure mines of the unsearchable riches of Christ is in desperate need.
Mega churches are filled with entertainment.
Cheated Christians come for a concert for the most part.
Or they come for watching a team of worshippers perform on stage for them.

To be fair some congregation thirst for good teaching.
Many are still fed going to heaven.
Worse yet they are fed that you have to DIE and go into the realm of DEATH in order to be with Jesus.
This makes the Jesus of resurrection and the life the God who rules the realm of the DEAD!

And you defend here this inadaquate leaven scolding me that I'm anti-academia.
These are the last days. Christians everywhere need to drop the soulish candy and get a governing vision of the eternal purpose
of the Triune God to dispense His life and nature into man to grow the divine within the human.

How about we care much more about staying on topic. Text Critic B. F. Wescott famously said of anti-academic evangelicals: "The simple Gospel is not so simple as the simple would have you suppose."

On topic is you not being able to show "Going to Heaven" is in the word of God.
Say it or present your examples.

Tacit approval of this bad "milk" by referring to modestly supporting academics isn't good enough.
If you can't solidly prove Heaven going is what is on God's heart how about we come back to the pure word
and have the eyes of out hearts enlightened to SEE what is His economy.

Its right there in the word if we are willing to drop the leaven and candied substitutes.
Don't try to defend them. Drop them and come back to the vision of God dispensing His life and nature into Christians to build them up together for His house, for His counterpart.

Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue, Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust. (2 Peter 1:3,4)

 

[oikonomia]

Jesus did not come to make the world a better place.
He came to call us out of the decaying world.

He will be coming back to a new earth, the home of righteousness, having first been melted by fire (2 Pe 3:12-13).

Hold it.

I agree that He did not charge His disciples to be social reformers putting bandaids on the world.
But is not the RESTORATION at His coming back making the world a better place?

The building of local churches where God can grow Christ in people in city by city is preperation for His
coming back. That coming INCLUDES His establishing His kingdom on the earth.

Let me ask you this. If His overomers are to be co-kings with Him as a reward WHO do you think they are to
be kings over? Do you think the Lord intends that they rule over each other ??

Some unregenerated human beings will be tranferred from the present age into the age of the millennial kingdom.
And that IS about a RESTORATION and Christ's reigning from Jerusalem (not from Heaven) for 1,000 years.

Yes, Ultimately, ultimately after He fulfills some promises to Abraham, heaven and earth will pass away but His word
will not pass away. And we await a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells.

This is deeper than going to heaven you know? One part of our being is ALREADY in the new universe - our regenerated human spirit.
God intends this newness of His divine nature spread into our souls and ultimately break out into our bodies in transfiguration.

Therefore the meat of the Gospels is we are partakers of the divine nature called BY and INTO His own eternal glory.

Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue, (look it up) lol - (2 Peter 1:3)

But the God of all grace, He who has called you into His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself perfect, establish, strengthen, and ground you. ( 1 Pet. 5:10)

To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess. 2:14)

 

[Clare73]

Hold it.

I agree that He did not charge His disciples to be social reformers putting bandaids on the world.
But is not the RESTORATION at His coming back making the world a better place?

The building of local churches where God can grow Christ in people in city by city is preperation for His
coming back. That coming INCLUDES His establishing His kingdom on the earth.

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 1:16), as distinct from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8),
that was done at the first coming. Jesus said
the kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28),
it is not of this world (Jn 18:36), it is of the spiritual world, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.
It being everlasting (Lk 1:33) and never ending (Da 2:44), there is no other kingdom of God to come.

Let me ask you this. If His overomers are to be co-kings with Him as a reward WHO do you think they are to
be kings over? Do you think the Lord intends that they rule over each other ??

We are reigning with Jesus now. (Eph 2:6, 1:20).

Some unregenerated human beings will be tranferred from the present age into the age of the millennial kingdom.
And that IS about a RESTORATION and Christ's reigning from Jerusalem (not from Heaven) for 1,000 years.

That is a riddle of prophecy not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, which I interpret in terms agreeing with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), with which apostolic teaching all interpretation of prophecy must agree if God's word is not to be set against itself.
I interpret the "millennium" to be figurative of the church age, where the first resurrection is from spiritual death into spiritual life in the new birth. There is only one resurrection of the bodies of mankind, at the end of time, for the judgment of the sheep and goats (all mankind).

Yes, Ultimately, ultimately after He fulfills some promises to Abraham, heaven and earth will pass away but His word
will not pass away. And we await a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells.

This is deeper than going to heaven you know? One part of our being is ALREADY in the new universe - our regenerated human spirit.
God intends this newness of His divine nature spread into our souls and ultimately break out into our bodies in transfiguration.

That is reserved for the resurrection (1 Co 15:42-49) and the new heavens and new earth at that time (Ro 8:22-23).

Therefore the meat of the Gospels is we are partakers of the divine nature called BY and INTO His own eternal glory.
Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue, (look it up) lol - (2 Peter 1:3)
But the God of all grace, He who has called you into His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself perfect, establish, strengthen, and ground you. ( 1 Pet. 5:10)
To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess. 2:14)

No argument there. . .

 

[oikonomia]

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 1:16), as distinct from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8),
that was done at the first coming. Jesus said
the kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28),
it is not of this world (Jn 18:36), it is of the spiritual world, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.
It being everlasting (Lk 1:33) and never ending (Da 2:44), there is no other kingdom of God to come.

We are reigning with Jesus now. (Eph 2:6, 1:20).

That is a riddle of prophecy not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, which I interpret in terms agreeing with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), with which apostolic teaching all interpretation of prophecy must agree if God's word is not to be set against itself.
I interpret the "millennium" to be figurative of the church age, where the first resurrection is from spiritual death into spiritual life in the new birth. There is only one resurrection of the bodies of mankind, at the end of time, for the judgment of the sheep and goats (all mankind).

That is reserved for the resurrection (1 Co 15:42-49) and the new heavens and new earth at that time (Ro 8:22-23).

No argument there. . .

 

[oikonomia]

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 1:16), as distinct from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8),
that was done at the first coming.

The Lord said that the Holy Spirit would lead the church into all the truth. Is it fair for some to resist their shortage in understanding some
things by accusing them of being "riddles."

There were a thousand years of the Dark Ages when vewry few if any (like Luther) understood the Spirit was was not pointing to "riddles"
when showing from Romans other books, Justification was by FAITH. Sure, the popes and many clerics with the keys to the locked up
Bible kept away from the people may have scoffed "Riddles!"

He is the SAME God Clare73. He is the same MOVING Holy Spirit leading the church into all the truth.
Clare73, He's moving ON. Today He is moving ON!

Jesus said
the kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28),

You find NO quotation from me anywhere on this Forum teaching the kingdom of God is not also today.
Did I say the kingdom was not now ?

it is not of this world (Jn 18:36),

It is never sourced in this world, His kingdom, not now when it is in the normal prevailing church life where it is righteousness peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Nor when His servant Do fight when His bridal army returns from Heaven with Him to fight at the battle of Armeggedon in chapter 19 of Revelation.

it is of the spiritual world, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.
It being everlasting (Lk 1:33) and never ending (Da 2:44), there is no other kingdom of God to come.

We are reigning with Jesus now. (Eph 2:6, 1:20).

Excellent! Then let us drop the cotton candy of waiting to die that we may go to heaven - meeting there a God of death.

Amen, we are reigning now. So let us drop the superficial "going to heaven" to settled down in luxuriously decorated mansions
He went to prepare for each believer.

I am all for teaching that TODAY we reign in life.

That is a riddle of prophecy not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, which I interpret in terms agreeing with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), with which apostolic teaching all interpretation of prophecy must agree if God's word is not to be set against itself.

It is a game for some Christians to accuse of be "riddles" what has not yet been unveiled to them.

This is why Paul's prayer is as relevant today as ever -

The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Eph. 1:18)

Now the important part Clare73. Please specify to me the TOP two or three "RIDDLES" that you feel I have taught here.
Do not leave your best examples for backup latter. Give me your best examples of my "riddle" making up front in your next
post to me.

Thankyou.

I interpret the "millennium" to be figurative of the church age, where the first resurrection is from spiritual death into spiritual life in the new birth. There is only one resurrection of the bodies of mankind, at the end of time, for the judgment of the sheep and goats (all mankind).

That is reserved for the resurrection (1 Co 15:42-49) and the new heavens and new earth at that time (Ro 8:22-23).

No argument there. . .

I await your topmost examples of my concocting or finding "riddles" in the NT to teach.

Is my treatment of Matthew 25 one if it does not conform to your position that that is the same as the last
judgment at the great white throne in Revelation 20 a riddle to you?

By the way, I do not consider that detail as a seriousness enough difference of interpretation to put either one of us
outside the brotherhood of faith.

There is pre-trib, and post trib, and alas pan-trib.
Pan-trib is if you trust in Jesus eveything will pan out alright.

 

[Clare73]

The Lord said that the Holy Spirit would lead the church into all the truth. Is it fair for some to resist their shortage in understanding some things by accusing them of being "riddles."

I think we are in misunderstanding.

It is God, not us, who in his prophecies speaks in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8).
That means his prophecies are subject to more than one interpretation.

I was referring to "interpreting prophecy" as "interpreting riddles, and interpreting prophecy as being distinct from NT teaching (didactics) which is not spoken in riddles.
I stated that because I thought you might be referring to prophecy.
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

There were a thousand years of the Dark Ages when vewry few if any (like Luther) understood the Spirit was was not pointing to "riddles"
when showing from Romans other books, Justification was by FAITH. Sure, the popes and many clerics with the keys to the locked up
Bible kept away from the people may have scoffed "Riddles!"
He is the SAME God Clare73. He is the same MOVING Holy Spirit leading the church into all the truth.
Clare73, He's moving ON. Today He is moving ON!
You find NO quotation from me anywhere on this Forum teaching the kingdom of God is not also today.
Did I say the kingdom was not now ?
It is never sourced in this world, His kingdom, not now when it is in the normal prevailing church life where it is righteousness peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Nor when His servant Do fight when His bridal army returns from Heaven with Him to fight at the battle of Armeggedon in chapter 19 of Revelation.
Excellent! Then let us drop the cotton candy of waiting to die that we may go to heaven - meeting there a God of death.
Amen, we are reigning now. So let us drop the superficial "going to heaven" to settled down in luxuriously decorated mansions
He went to prepare for each believer.
I am all for teaching that TODAY we reign in life.
It is a game for some Christians to accuse of be "riddles" what has not yet been unveiled to them.
This is why Paul's prayer is as relevant today as ever -
The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Eph. 1:18)

Now the important part Clare73. Please specify to me the TOP two or three "RIDDLES" that you feel I have taught here.
Do not leave your best examples for backup latter. Give me your best examples of my "riddle" making up front in your next
post to me.

I am not saying you teach riddles.
I am saying God speaks prophecy in riddles.
Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Is my treatment of Matthew 25 one if it does not conform to your position that that is the same as the last
judgment at the great white throne in Revelation 20 a riddle to you?
By the way, I do not consider that detail as a seriousness enough difference of interpretation to put either one of us
outside the brotherhood of faith.
There is pre-trib, and post trib, and alas pan-trib.
Pan-trib is if you trust in Jesus eveything will pan out alright.

However, in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), there is only one rapture at the end of time, at the second coming (1 Th 4:16-17), compared to the multiple raptures derived from incorrect interpretation of prophetic riddles.

Again, very sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Berserk]

He will be coming back to a new earth, the home of righteousness, having first been melted by fire (2 Pe 3:12-13).

And "the new earth is not a restoration or remodeling of the old earth; it is an entirely new world without a sea:

"... the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more (Revelation 21:1)."

Most of our current planet is water! It seems doubtful that this "new earth" will be a new planet orbiting around our very old sun. More likely, it will be an earthlike world in a spiritual plane and in that sense a heaven, perhaps even a newly designed portion of Paradise in the third Heaven:

"In my Father's house are many dwelling places... I go to prepare a place for you (John 14:2-3)."

The new earth in the kingdom of heaven is a spiritual realm that we enter at death, but it is already here in a spiritual dimension that we cannot see with our physical eyes:

"The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed; nor will they say, "Look, here it is!" or "There it is!" For the kingdom of God is [already] in your midst (Luke 17:20-21)."

Put differently, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem or kingdom of God is an already present spiritual realm that we have already entered:

"You have [already] come to... the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem and to innumerable angels in festal gathering and to the assembly of the firstborn WHO ARE ENROLLED IN HEAVEN... (Hebrews 12:22-23)"

When we are enrolled in a school, we attend that school; and when we are "enrolled in Heaven," we attend and enter Heaven.