To “hell” with God’s Image?

[Jipsah]

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God sends no one to the lake of fire because of sin, Jesus took care of sin on the cross. The only reason an unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire. Is because they never received The Life of God (by belief in Jesus) and remained in their dead state.

Who created hell? Who decided that hell would be the default eternal abode for the vast majority of humanity? Hint: It was the same one Who created everythning else.

So a person who is dead spiritually can not live with/where an alive spiritual God resides.

But they're gonna live forever in hell, right?

So the only place for the dead spiritually unbeliever is the lake of fire.

Because that's where you believe God decided to fling 'em.

St. Paul says the wages of sin is death. You lot say the wages of sin is eternal life in torment. One of you is wrong.

 

[Jipsah]

That is more than adequately covered in the NT.

Yep. The wages of sin is death.

 

[Jipsah]

, Eternal Life can not reside in hell.​

Wait, I though you believed in Eternal Conscious Torment. That requires eternal life. No good flogging a dead sinner, is there?

 

[Palmfever]

If the thread title got your attention and made you go huh? Perhaps even angered you? Good! I have two very sincere and very relevant questions for my ECT brothers in Christ.

1). If God made man in His own image, why would He send any of His Image bearers to hell?

Since God is eternal, Has a eternal Spirit and eternal Word, is the Creator of natural man in a natural universe. And, flesh and blood cannot enter heaven we can safely assume that it is not a physical resemblance referred to in Genesis.
What have we left? I think it is our ability to make our own choices and if we chose, direct our own path. "Have you not read, ye are gods."
Christ came in the likeness of man, not as a man. He was God in a man's body so that, that man could be offered as the sacrificial lamb.
He said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Since God is eternal, Has a eternal Spirit and eternal Word, is the Creator of natural man in a natural universe. And, flesh and blood cannot enter heaven we can safely assume that it is not a physical resemblance referred to in Genesis.

I‘m pretty sure the image spoken about in Genesis, that I’m referring to, isn’t physical. I think perhaps it has more to do with man ruling/subduing over creation. Perhaps more about the role(s) of man in life and the ability to know good from evil? Regardless, it is a very special designation and should not be taken lightly. True, flesh and blood (corruption) cannot inherit the Kingdom, but there is some kind of physicality as Jesus revealed himself to the disciples; plus Jesus ate and showed his hands and feet to Thomas and spoke to and dined with them.

What have we left? I think it is our ability to make our own choices and if we chose, direct our own path. "Have you not read, ye are gods."

Not really understanding the relevance here …

Christ came in the likeness of man, not as a man. He was God in a man's body so that, that man could be offered as the sacrificial lamb.
He said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

Palmfever, good morning and appreciate your reply. Except Jesus was most definitely a real man …

blessings

 

[d taylor]

I’m sorry my friend but I’m probably just not good at articulating my position. You see, I agree that Jesus payed the penalty for our sin … perfectly! The incomprehensibly painful “death” (blood shed of spotless lamb) Jesus experienced, both physically and spiritually, was/is exactly what the Father required.

You say If man rejects the payment made on his behalf by the blood of Jesus, his sin debt is still paid. But it is the rejection of the Life giver that sends him to hell. Have I got that correct? If the blood (death) of the lamb covers the sin of mankind the debt is paid indeed. But by rejecting the Life Giver one is also choosing to reject the means by which life is obtained. I don’t think you can separate the two. Therefore, I can only conclude that the Life Jesus gives is only obtained through man through His death. If I choose death then I choose the death that the Son of God Experienced. Now that is one terrifying thought … I can’t begin to imagine what the total scope of that death is/was but it is not ECT in hell.

Perhaps we should move on … Could you comment on God condemning His image bearers, thus condemning His own Name? Just how does God get glory from condemning His own Name?

Blessings

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Look at the great white throne judgment the dead are sent (cast in) to the lake of fire when their name is not found in the Book of Life.

Why is their name not in the Book of Life, because these people never believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

What does this mean
Therefore, I can only conclude that the Life Jesus gives is only obtained through man through His death. If I choose death then I choose the death that the Son of God Experienced. Now that is one terrifying thought …

The Life Jesus is offering people is obtained at the very moment of belief in Jesus. A person does not wait till they die to be given The Life of God.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The verse above states the believer in Jesus has everlasting life and has passed from death to life. The verse does not say, will after death pass from death to life.

 

[d taylor]

Who created hell? Who decided that hell would be the default eternal abode for the vast majority of humanity? Hint: It was the same one Who created everythning else.

But they're gonna live forever in hell, right?

Because that's where you believe God decided to fling 'em.

St. Paul says the wages of sin is death. You lot say the wages of sin is eternal life in torment. One of you is wrong.

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Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[d taylor]

Wait, I though you believed in Eternal Conscious Torment. That requires eternal life. No good flogging a dead sinner, is there?

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People are born physically alive but spiritually dead. These people will remain spiritually dead in eternity, in other words they will remain a sinner for all eternity.

Where as born again believers will cease to be a sinner after their physical death.

Every person living will live on in eternity. Either spiritually and physically alive for the born again child of God on the new earth or spiritually dead and some type of body/soul presence in the lake of fire.

 

[bling]

If the thread title got your attention and made you go huh? Perhaps even angered you? Good! I have two very sincere and very relevant questions for my ECT brothers in Christ.

1). If God made man in His own image, why would He send any of His Image bearers to hell?

Ans: He most definitely would NOT and will NOT …The Scriptures are clear … man is made in God’s Image. Yes? Therefore it follows, were God to send even one man, let alone the majority of mankind to hell, He would be condemning His own Image to hell! No? Hmmmmmmm, I can’t see how anyone can disagree with this logical conclusion.

God’s Name is on the line here folks. His Name is who He is and He is the only true God and there is no other! AMEN! He declares He will not give His glory to another … I would here be referring to Satan. The Adversary of God and man. Is God going to allow Satan to torment Him via His image bearers? Forever? At all?


2). If Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sin, and according to so many that penalty is ECT, why is Jesus seated at the Right Hand of God instead of suffering ECT in hell for all the redeemed who have trusted Him to pay the penalty for their sin?

Ans: Because “the wages of sin is death …” Both physical and spiritual death. First death, Second Death … doesn’t matter. Death is death. The last enemy to be defeated is death! No? Jesus is not suffering ECT in hell because this carnally minded concept of man is NOT what the Scriptures teach. Plain and simple. If the wages of sin was ECT … He lied! Currently Jesus is not in hell, nor is He in a perpetual state of searing pain, paying the penalty on your behalf. Your debt is still your debt!

This kind of carnal minded theological concept, when taken to its logical conclusion, shows itself to be what it really is; the most God forsaken, wicked assault ever perpetrated against His Name. It completely negates the completed work of Christ. If He were forever suffering the eternal consequences on behalf of His people, He would not have been able to be resurrected! Contempt is being pour out on all His other promises by adhering to this carnal minded doctrine and mockery of the Gospel. Once again, I can’t see how anyone can disagree with this logical conclusion.

Blessings …

First off: What "image" of God have we taken on? It seems to be in contrast to other animals.
Could God take His image in us back, before our being destined to hell?

You bring up the huge topic of Atonement:
Think about this: If God forgives your sins 100% than there is nothing to pay for and if your sins are 100% paid for there is nothing to forgive.

As an introduction:
Could you say: “If a person continues to rejects Jesus Christ and Him Crucified a child is kept from entering the Kingdom and being with his Father?”

Could you also say: “If a person accepts Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with his father?”

Since “Christ gave His Life as a ransom for many”, can you say: “Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the “ransom payment”?

Deity is making a huge sacrificial “ransom payment” as Peter would say, “much greater than silver or gold”, to release a child to enter the Kingdom, but not all children enter the Kingdom, so who or what is holding them back?

Some people say and think, what holds a person back out of the kingdom is: Satan, God, death, sin, evil, or really nothing, but do not put the blame where it belongs, on the person themselves. If you do not choose to accept the ransom, how could you enter the Kingdom?

The huge sacrificial payment (greater than silver and gold) is very much like what you would expect in a kidnapping scenario and a kidnapping scenario needs a criminal kidnapper unjustly demanding a huge ransom. Why doesn’t every kidnapper accept this huge payment?

Since this huge sacrificial payment is totally undeserved and God does not owe a thing to the kidnapper, the ransom payment is like a “gift” to the kidnapper.

People will do almost anything to avoid having to humbly accept pure charity as charity. People seem to like being “loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not as criminal kidnappers.

The “ransom” lots of people are wanting and might be told is being offered is some very carnal reward (like the Muslim man wanting 72 virgins to have relationships with throughout eternity) and not forgiveness, Love, fellowship, hardship, a huge challenge and discipline.

This kidnapper rejecting or accepting the ransom payment must become the child which can go into the kingdom, so they cannot be separated. The kidnapper has to “change” (be born again as a child of God.)

Satan is certainly undeserving and God owes him nothing, but why would God gift Satan with anything?

If Satan had anything God wanted, God could simply just take it, so no need for Christ to go to the cross.

Saying: “Satan is the kidnapper”, just elevates Satan to being on an equal plain with God.

God is not an undeserving kidnapper.

To say there is no kidnapper removes the ransoming analogy, and yet Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews all describe it as a literal ransoming.

The Old Testament describes the temple tax and paying for a slave’s freedom, as being ransom payments, but in the first century context paying kidnappers a ransom payment was very common and even Julious Ceasar was kidnapper and ransomed.

What are the benefits from thinking and seeing the unbelieving sinner as the kidnapper?

• It gives an excellent reason for why not everyone’s sins are atoned for.
• It breaks out the atonement sacrifice from the whole atonement process.
• It provides a part for the sinner in the atonement process, making it very participative for the sinner.
• It explains how the atonement process is a ransoming.
• It goes along with the analogy of first becoming a child to enter the Kingdom.
• It gives logical alternatives to the wrong choices for the unbeliever.
• It introduces the idea of us having to accept something.

The Kidnapping Scenario does not define atonement, eliminate other atonement theories as add-ons, nor explain what the sinner is accepting, so we need to look further.

 

[Laodicean60]

Ans: He most definitely would NOT and will NOT …The Scriptures are clear … man is made in God’s Image. Yes? Therefore it follows, were God to send even one man, let alone the majority of mankind to hell, He would be condemning His own Image to hell! No? Hmmmmmmm, I can’t see how anyone can disagree with this logical conclusion.

I always understood this image as being a spiritual being like the Father. The Father is the true image we are just copies and if we were the exact replica image of God we wouldn't need Jesus. So God isn't sending his own image to hell.

 

[AV1611VET]

2). If Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sin, and according to so many that penalty is ECT, why is Jesus seated at the Right Hand of God instead of suffering ECT in hell for all the redeemed who have trusted Him to pay the penalty for their sin?

Because He has the keys.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[d taylor]

I always understood this image as being a spiritual being like the Father. The Father is the true image we are just copies and if we were the exact replica image of God we wouldn't need Jesus. So God isn't sending his own image to hell.

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I personally believe Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. Being that they were created and not only created but created without sin. That is not true of man after the fall, man is no longer created by God but is birthed from women. And is birthed in a sinful state, true they are still human, but they no longer have a sinless state, like God. So is man currently now created in the image of God? They are birthed in a fallen human state and can be given The Life of God (upon belief in Jesus) then it can be said they are now as believers in the image of God.

Does Jesus not say unbelievers have as their father satan.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

 

[Laodicean60]

Being that they were created and not only created but created without sin.

I wonder how someone without sin could eventually sin. Jesus was the only human on this planet who had not sinned after the original sin.

So is man currently now created in the image of God? Let Us make man in Our image,

I still think so because I take "man" as humankind not just Adam and Eve.

Does Jesus not say unbelievers have as their father satan.

Yes, Spiritual beings have two places to live out eternity.

 

[d taylor]

I wonder how someone without sin could eventually sin. Jesus was the only human on this planet who had not sinned after the original sin.

I still think so because I take "man" as humankind not just Adam and Eve.

Yes, Spiritual beings have two places to live out eternity.

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Because they were created, only a being, God who was not created could ever not sin. Satan was also created and sinned. God gave each created being (satan angels, adam eve) an amount of time to live and not sin. If Adam would have lived out this time and not sin, Adam would have been confirmed in the righteous God created him with and then could have no longer been able to sin. Same with Eve she fell first but Adam still could have not taken the fruit and have been confirmed in his sinless state.

Notice there are fallen and elect angels. These elect angles can not now sin, as they did not follow satan (and other angels) in his rebellion against God.

 

[Clare73]

Read Job ch. 33 to ch. 42. It should answer your questions. If not, read it again, and again ...

AMEN!

 

[eleos1954]

If the thread title got your attention and made you go huh? Perhaps even angered you? Good! I have two very sincere and very relevant questions for my ECT brothers in Christ.

1). If God made man in His own image, why would He send any of His Image bearers to hell?

Ans: He most definitely would NOT and will NOT …The Scriptures are clear … man is made in God’s Image. Yes? Therefore it follows, were God to send even one man, let alone the majority of mankind to hell, He would be condemning His own Image to hell! No? Hmmmmmmm, I can’t see how anyone can disagree with this logical conclusion.

God’s Name is on the line here folks. His Name is who He is and He is the only true God and there is no other! AMEN! He declares He will not give His glory to another … I would here be referring to Satan. The Adversary of God and man. Is God going to allow Satan to torment Him via His image bearers? Forever? At all?


2). If Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sin, and according to so many that penalty is ECT, why is Jesus seated at the Right Hand of God instead of suffering ECT in hell for all the redeemed who have trusted Him to pay the penalty for their sin?

Ans: Because “the wages of sin is death …” Both physical and spiritual death. First death, Second Death … doesn’t matter. Death is death. The last enemy to be defeated is death! No? Jesus is not suffering ECT in hell because this carnally minded concept of man is NOT what the Scriptures teach. Plain and simple. If the wages of sin was ECT … He lied! Currently Jesus is not in hell, nor is He in a perpetual state of searing pain, paying the penalty on your behalf. Your debt is still your debt!

This kind of carnal minded theological concept, when taken to its logical conclusion, shows itself to be what it really is; the most God forsaken, wicked assault ever perpetrated against His Name. It completely negates the completed work of Christ. If He were forever suffering the eternal consequences on behalf of His people, He would not have been able to be resurrected! Contempt is being pour out on all His other promises by adhering to this carnal minded doctrine and mockery of the Gospel. Once again, I can’t see how anyone can disagree with this logical conclusion.

Blessings …

Hell is the grave ... when one dies (including Jesus) they go to the grave and wait to be resurrected (like Jesus). Jesus overcame the 2nd death (that is for eternity and He was resurrected) .... some day so will we. Jesus paid our debt ... judgement is entirely up to Him ... those of whom He covers with His blood will be fully pardoned .... others will not.

Jesus is in heaven and He ministers from the sanctuary that is in heaven ... the real one.

There is no eternal burning place.

 

[OnePlanPeopleDestiny]

When man uses a word like "perfect", he uses it subjectively. When he says "this is perfect", he subjectively describes something, someone, some place, or some circumstance that could be refuted by another as imperfect. Of course his refutation would be just as subjective as the one who made the claim of "perfect."

If the word "perfect" could ever be applied objectively, which no refutation could ever be made, though it may be made in vain but it would not be sustainable because the thing claimed to be perfect is indeed perfect and thus beyond refutation, then that word "perfect" would describe God, for God is objectively perfect.

God is perfectly righteous. God is perfectly just. God is perfectly loving. We are none of those.

If everyone from the beginning were perfectly righteous, just, and loving, no one would ever be punished, there'd be sin, no death, and we would be living in perfectly objective bliss relative to the knowledge and nature of good and evil.

If Adam, the first of all creatures made in the image of and after the likeness of God, was perfect in all his ways before he sinned, why would God sentence HIS own likeness and image to death for just one act of disobedience?

Answer: God is perfect and HIS commands are perfect and without refutation. God commands that we be perfect as HE is perfect in all our ways according to His commands. We have no right to disobey God's commands and be free from punishment when we disobey. God in fact forewarns of punishment for not doing HIS will. But God, in HIS perfection, created us with moral free agency to behave outside of God's will, notwithstanding the penalty for not doing HIS will. How can a perfect God be so? It's God's perfection that you question with the faculties of an oh so imperfect mind of man.

The penalty for Adam's sin was death, but not immediate physical death. Adam's immediate death was spiritual, which resulted in his separation from the communion he had with God in the garden; his physical death some 900 plus years later. From all that the Bible tells us, Adam was obedient to God's other command: be fruitful and multiply, and we learn that Adam likely told his children and grandchildren etc that God was going to put an end to sin and death and restore the communion man once had with God, all through the seed of the woman. We see this through the Genesis narrative.

Accordingly, the faithful children of Adam cried out to God for the redeemer, for they saw the evil continually on the earth, and the faithful know that their redeemer lives. But those who do evil and reject the very notion that there is a God, God, in HIS absolute perfection, allows them that reject HIM to be able to live and enjoy their lives rejecting HIM, and, upon physical death, enjoy an eternal separation from the ONE they never wanted to be near in the first place. They lived as unrepentant reprobates and died as unrepentant reprobates.

God warns us that the punishment for rejecting the ONE who created you is eternal. If that eternal punishment is separation into absolute darkness where all that is known is weeping and gnashing of teeth, or whether it is eternally in the lake if fire where the worm never dies and thirst is never quenched, it is by the perfect decree of a perfect God that it be so.

May the Lord our God bless you and keep you and shine HIS face upon you. In the mighty holy holy holy and precious name of Jesus. Amen, amen.

 

[Palmfever]

Not really understanding the relevance here …

Palmfever, good morning and appreciate your reply. Except Jesus was most definitely a real man …

blessings

Philipians, 2:7
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Likeness here is resemblance. This does not diminish His sacrifice for us. Contrarily it emphasizes the degree and depth of commitment, the unshakable love He has for us to put on this human form.

All men are sinners
Romans, 3:23
23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

He was/is sinless
1 Peter 2:22
Who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;

2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

He had no earthly father
Matt, 1:20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet:
23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child!
She will give birth to a son,
and they will call him Immanuel,
which means ‘God is with us.’”

The demons recognized Him
“What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Did You come here to torment us before the time?”

John The Baptist recognized Him
John, 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, ‘Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, “A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.”

John, 14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I go to prepare a place for you
John, 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

He was the Word of God on earth
John, 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Satan knew Him which is why he tempted Him
Matt,11:6
For it is written:
‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’
and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’

He is the mediator between man and God
John 14:13-14
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John 14:13-14
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John, 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The good news is that
16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The good news is the story of the Son of God in the flesh performing the act which no man was qualified for since all were sinners. He was the son of no earthly father. He was unblemished. He was the second man Adam being the first. He came to break the curse of death pronounced when first man sinned.

1 Cor, 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

He was filled with Gods Spirit on earth without limit/measure.

John,3:34​

34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without measure to Him. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has placed all things into His hand.

As for your statement concerning Thomas, Christ was still wearing a human body. He had not yet ascended.

I didn't really proofread this, but I think it is enough. If not... Go with God​

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I always understood this image as being a spiritual being like the Father. The Father is the true image we are just copies and if we were the exact replica image of God we wouldn't need Jesus. So God isn't sending his own image to hell.

Laodicean60 thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yea, I think we both can agree the image spoken of is not physical. Man is made in the image of his Creator in some way. Spiritual … emotions … Knowledge of good and evil with the responsibility to judge accordingly … fulfilling specific roles and subduing/ruling over creation? Just some thoughts on what it might mean to be image of God.

The Father IS Spirit and we are, in some fashion image bearers, definitely not the exact replica; that distinction belongs to: Jesus is, according to the author of the book of Hebrews: He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,“ Hebrews‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬ ‭ESV‬‬.

Amen … doesn’t seem like we are in disagreement my brother.
blessings

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
2). If Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sin, and according to so many that penalty is ECT, why is Jesus seated at the Right Hand of God instead of suffering ECT in hell for all the redeemed who have trusted Him to pay the penalty for their sin?

Because He has the keys.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Amen my brother … no argument from me. Jesus is indeed NOT in hell. The righteous demands of the Father were completely fulfilled by His Son! My point is, IF … the righteous demands of the Father included ECT, which it most definitely is not, then it logically would require the Son to submit to ECT if He is to fulfill those demands.