Where does this stuff come from?

[Kentonio]

Nope....that's not how it works. They've got any number of studies showing that being aware of implicit bias doesn't change behavior.

Why would being aware magically solve the issue? If you're aware you're afraid of heights does that instantly make you stop being? Awareness isn't enough, you actually have to make an effort to change.

Let's try this again....

Psychology’s favourite tool for measuring implicit bias is still mired in controversy

On that last key point, there is surprising agreement. In 2015 Greenwald, Banaji, and their coauthor Brian Nosek stated that the psychometric issues associated with various IATs “render them problematic to use to classify persons as likely to engage in discrimination”. Indeed, these days IAT evangelist and critic alike mostly agree that the test is too noisy to usefully and accurately gauge people’s likelihood of engaging in discrimination — a finding supported by a series of meta-analyses showing unimpressive correlations between IAT scores and behavioral outcomes (mostly in labs).

That's the people who created the test...they're literally saying it doesn't predict behavior.

Gosh, so when I said "It's not supposed to be a scientific experiment that predicts people's behaviour, and the idea that it was ever intended as such is laughable." you decided to pretend I was saying the opposite just so you had something to argue against?

If you think the test can show someone is biased against black people....that's a questionable conclusion.

Not particularly. The test 'can' show you have implicit bias. If your instincts continually cause you to subconsciously connect black skin with negative emotions and responses then its a pretty clear and obvious sign of implicit bias.

If you think the test can show someone biased will discriminate against a black person....you're 100% wrong.

That's what the research says, that's what the science says, and that's what the people who made the test say.

Which literally no-one is actually suggesting in the first place, so I'm not sure why you keep erecting strawmen to fight against.

This is not intended to be some perfect predictor of discriminatory behaviour, and frankly such a thing wouldn't be possible anyway. It's worth is in providing a tool that can show someone who does the test with an open mind any implicit biases they have. As I said previously the most revealing results come through the process rather than the actual result screen at the end.

If however you approach it with a determination that you are absolutely not racist in any way and nothing they say is going to tell you otherwise, then the test is worthless frankly. But as its value is solely to the person actually taking it anyway, the only person who loses out is themselves.

 

[KCfromNC]

I'd be interested on seeing that survey -- at least in part because "self-reporting" is notoriously unreliable. People tend to not be completely honest in surveys about their own behavior and how it might have contributed to a negative event.

Plus it doesn't really matter to the discussion of whether masks are effective or not. I mean, as a similar example most people who have had foot injuries wear shoes "religiously", but that doesn't really answer the question of whether the correct protective shoes reduce the incidence of workplace injuries.

 

[Arc F1]

You know what works even better than a surgical mask when near someone with a virus? Wearing nothing. At least, that's what many on the right would have you believe.

That's like saying wearing jersey gloves around high voltage is better than nothing at all.

 

[Petros2015]

You know what works even better than a surgical mask when near someone with a virus? Wearing nothing.

It's true. I immediately got everyone to social distance well over 20' when I tried this!

 

[Arc F1]

I'll have to study this more fully to give a thorough reply, but do keep in mind that masks have the potential to reduce the severity of infections even in those infected, since it reduces the total possible inoculum of the virus.

And the reported conclusions of this study run contrary to other studies that show that wearing face masks reduces transmission of respiratory viral infections. It would be very unusual if a face mask did not do the same for the Coronavirus.

In theory the masks make sense but for them to be effective you would have to use them once and then go thru a whole decontamination regiment. Myself I take it off throw it on the dash then grab it again at the next stop etc etc. My hands touch it, my car dash touches it, the virus is all over the place by the second stop and then it goes home with me. I asked about wearing a mask before all of this because of my immune system. I was told not to.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-10-surgical-masks-flu.html

 

[whatbogsends]

That's like saying wearing jersey gloves around high voltage is better than nothing at all.

No, it's like saying wearing a long sleeve shirt and sweat pants around a hornets nest is better than nothing at all.

People who say the masks do nothing are either a) misinformed or b) lying. Advocates for masks know that masks don't prevent all spread of COVID, but the obviousness of how they reduce the transmission isn't complicated.

Sneeze while not wearing a mask.
Sneeze while wearing a mask.

The difference is obvious.

Blow out a candle while not wearing a mask.
Blow out a candle while wearing a mask.

The difference is obvious.

 

[renniks]

It was your criticism of cloth masks. You said that breathing goes right through it.
Of course it does.

Breath, as in breath vapor.

 

[durangodawood]

Awsome... and we both have a right to that opinion, don't we?

You have a right to any opinion. But not to any behavior.

Hey its my opinion that driving 70mph in an active school zone is perfectly safe!

 

[Petros2015]

Hey its my opinion that driving 70mph in an active school zone is perfectly safe!

lol. It's safe for you; just not the kids.

 

[whatbogsends]

In theory the masks make sense but for them to be effective you would have to use them once and then go thru a whole decontamination regiment. Myself I take it off throw it on the dash then grab it again at the next stop etc etc. My hands touch it, my car dash touches it, the virus is all over the place by the second stop and then it goes home with me. I asked about wearing a mask before all of this because of my immune system. I was told not to.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-10-surgical-masks-flu.html

The masks that people are wearing are close to useless in a highly contaminated area where the virus is already all around you.

What the masks do is help prevent areas from becoming highly contaminated by limiting the spread of contaminated droplets by those who are already infected.

 

[Arc F1]

No, it's like saying wearing a long sleeve shirt and sweat pants around a hornets nest is better than nothing at all.

People who say the masks do nothing are either a) misinformed or b) lying. Advocates for masks know that masks don't prevent all spread of COVID, but the obviousness of how they reduce the transmission isn't complicated.

Sneeze while not wearing a mask.
Sneeze while wearing a mask.

The difference is obvious.

Blow out a candle while not wearing a mask.
Blow out a candle while wearing a mask.

The difference is obvious.

I would suggest not going around a hornets nest at all. I made that mistake once in my youth. They don't care what you have on when you knock that nest to the ground. Angry little critters. I moved on to yellow jackets and that ended badly also.

 

[whatbogsends]

I would suggest not going around a hornets nest at all. I made that mistake once in my youth. They don't care what you have on when you knock that nest to the ground. Angry little critters. I moved on to yellow jackets and that ended badly also.

Yeah, when i accidentally destroyed a yellow jackets nest as a child, it ended in a hot shower to get the last ones out of my hair. Had something like 80 stings. Not fun.

My hornet adventure was more onesie-twosie. Still not fun.

In both cases, i can only imagine that having long pants and long sleeved shirt would have been better than the shorts and t-shirt i was wearing at the time. I'm not suggesting that it would have saved me, but it would likely have lessened my exposure.

 

[stevil]

Breath, as in breath vapor.

Quite a big difference between breath and breath vapor.
You need breath to go right through the mask otherwise it would be difficult to wear a mask.
You need some vapor to be captured otherwise there would be no point in the mask.

It seems not all masks are equally as effective therefore people should be carefull in choosing a mask, this doesn't mean they should just give up though. Somewhat like picking a sunblock, some are more effective than others, but you are better off with a sunblock rather than giving up on the idea of using sunblock.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Why would being aware magically solve the issue? If you're aware you're afraid of heights does that instantly make you stop being? Awareness isn't enough, you actually have to make an effort to change.

Fear of heights isn't implicit....people are completely aware of it.

Gosh, so when I said "It's not supposed to be a scientific experiment that predicts people's behaviour, and the idea that it was ever intended as such is laughable." you decided to pretend I was saying the opposite just so you had something to argue against?

Oh good....we agree implicit bias doesn't mean someone will act in a biased way.

I guess we're done then.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Our use of words is important if we are genuinely trying to explore ideas together.


yes, agree.

Ok.

Claiming that blacks are lazy and hence less likely to be good employees is putting superiority onto non blacks (perhaps whites). This is blatant racism, not just systemic.

I don't think "superiority" really enters the issue. Consider the racist belief that "white people can't dance"....does believing that other races are better dancers make them racially superior? I don't think so.

There's a collection of racist beliefs about races, including one's own race, that are pervasive in the US. I don't think holding one or a few of these beliefs indicates belief in superiority....just racism.

I have no idea as to the truth of the above statement. Whether it is a common belief or whether it is actually true. Have there been scientific studies on this?
I think it would be an interesting question and it would be interesting to know why this might be the case. I wouldn't call this racist.

The belief itself can be traced back to slavery days...there's no truth to it. It used to be very pervasive but I wouldn't be able to say how pervasive it is today.

No, I don't agree that pointing out some differences equates to racism.
If we state that blacks are more likely to have darker skin than whites, this isn't a racist statement.
If we state that blacks are less likely to get skin cancer than whites, this isn't a racist statement.

If we hypothesis that blacks are more likely to be better at explosive sports e.g. sprinting, boxing etc because we often see them excel in these particular sports, I wouldn't consider this racist. I would consider it interesting to try to understand why.
But it would be racist to reject a young promising boxer just because he is white and assuming he will not be able to cut it against his black counterparts.

I'm not arguing against factual statements....

The fact that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime isn't racist....it's true. It would be racist to say it's because they're black.

Similarly, saying that blacks are a large portion of professional athletes isn't racist....it's true. Saying that it's because they're black....that's racist.

See the difference?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The real problem is that Trump's administration, Fox news and Trump's supporters are twisting all this in order to defend Trump's attrocious handling of the pandemic.
They are trying very hard to discredit Faucci and to say that

You think these two women are die hard Trump supporters who watch Fox news?

Chicago sisters stab store worker 27 times after being asked to put on a mask

 

[stevil]

You think these two women are die hard Trump supporters who watch Fox news?

Chicago sisters stab store worker 27 times after being asked to put on a mask

I have never claimed that absolutely everyone that refuses to wear a mask is a die hard Trump supporter.

 

[stevil]

I don't think "superiority" really enters the issue.

Claiming that black people are lazy is a completely racist thing to claim. I have no idea why you are arguing against that.

Consider the racist belief that "white people can't dance"....does believing that other races are better dancers make them racially superior? I don't think so.

Claiming that white people can't dance is a racist claim and implies that other races are superior.

There's a collection of racist beliefs about races, including one's own race, that are pervasive in the US. I don't think holding one or a few of these beliefs indicates belief in superiority....just racism.

Please provide an example.

If you say that white people prefer potatoes and Chinese people prefer rice, this is a racial generalisation but isn't racist.
If you say that Chinese are better at maths than whites, this is close to being racist. You could however cite studies or statistics to support this claim which would make it fact rather than a racist claim.

The belief itself can be traced back to slavery days...there's no truth to it. It used to be very pervasive but I wouldn't be able to say how pervasive it is today.

Ohhh, I never heard that one. Maybe people used it to justify whipping their slaves. Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

I'm not arguing against factual statements....

The fact that blacks commit a disproportionate amount of crime isn't racist....it's true.

This might be debatable. IDK, but one could say the fact is that blacks are disproportionately convicted of crimes. It might be that all races commit a proportionate amount of crimes but some races are charged more often than others. I'm not going to argue this point because I don't know the facts. But I am saying that there is a difference between committing a crime and being charged with committing a crime.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Claiming that black people are lazy is a completely racist thing to claim.

I agree...I'm just saying that it doesn't have anything to do with superiority.

You seem to have this idea that racist beliefs = racial superiority.

Claiming that white people can't dance is a racist claim and implies that other races are superior.

I don't think it does...I don't think "good dancer= superior race" in most people's minds.

Please provide an example.

I've provided several .

If you say that white people prefer potatoes and Chinese people prefer rice, this is a racial generalisation but isn't racist.

Is there some statistical evidence for this or did you just make it up?

If you say that Chinese are better at maths than whites, this is close to being racist.

No...that's racist.

You could however cite studies or statistics to support this claim which would make it fact rather than a racist claim.

There's no statistics that can show Chinese people are better at math because they're Chinese.

Ohhh, I never heard that one. Maybe people used it to justify whipping their slaves. Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

You see the point though, right? The racist belief is that black people are better than everyone else (at dealing with pain) and it still can lead to their mistreatment.

That's why you should just drop the whole "superiority" aspect of racism. Most of Nazi propaganda against Jews involved their inferiority....but some of it claimed superiority. They believed that Jews were far craftier, more manipulative, and better at deception than other races.

It's not as if some of those beliefs were racist and some weren't.

This might be debatable. IDK, but one could say the fact is that blacks are disproportionately convicted of crimes. It might be that all races commit a proportionate amount of crimes but some races are charged more often than others. I'm not going to argue this point because I don't know the facts. But I am saying that there is a difference between committing a crime and being charged with committing a crime.

If there was evidence that other races were committing crimes and getting away with them at higher rates....sure.

In reality though, the black community has more unsolved crimes than any other race.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I have never claimed that absolutely everyone that refuses to wear a mask is a die hard Trump supporter.

What did you mean then when you said "the real problem" is Trump, Trump supporters, and Fox?

Cuz the guy who got stabbed 20+ times might disagree.