Where Did Jesus Go?

[Willtor]

to a certain degree it involves the elect becoming perfect.

I'll give this a qualified "perhaps." It comes from Ratzinger's book titled "Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life." It is somewhat of a more existential view of things purgatorial than the typical temporal view - none of which has been declared dogmatic, mind you.

The only reason that I say "perhaps" is the fact that Ratzinger was somewhat voluminous - either as a private theologian or as the official head of the doctrine office. Though this may be tantamount to heresy...I often prefer Ratzinger's / Benedict's views to those of the late JPII. Frankly, I think that even coming from a Protestant perspective they are somewhat more understandable.

Did JPII hold a more temporal view of Heaven/Hell/Purgatory? Although Purgatory is not an accepted teaching in the denom in which I was raised, Heaven and Hell are certainly treated as distinct, temporal places. It was through a friend who followed the works of Barth that I first became aware of alternate views. Until now, I wasn't aware that these were similar to (stemmed from?) the predominant views in Orthodoxy, and somewhat less predominant views in Catholicism.

 

[tall73]

Hey now,

The Apostle's Creed states, "He [Christ] descended into hell." However, in Luke 23:43, Christ says, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (NRSV) I don't quite know what to make of this. Thoughts?

Not only that but it also said that He committed His Spirit to the Father. And then after His resurrection He says " do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

 

[tall73]

Friend, to tell you the truth, He went both places.

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"-1 Pet. 3:19

When He was in the grave, before He was resurrected, He went and preached to those in hades, hell, whatever you want to call it. My Bible also says that while He was down there, He collected the keys to hell and death:

"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." -Rev. 1:18

After He was resurrected, after 40 days of ministering and teaching, then He and those who arose with him, went on to heaven.

After he was raised is not the "today" that he promised the thief He would be with him in paradise though.

 

[tall73]

Heaven and Hell are one and the same PLACE.

ETERNITY. Time means nothing to our creator.

There is no up or down to it.

We will all stand in front of God being "what we have become, what we have made of ourselves" for all Eternity. We will all experience being in the "presence of God" differently.

God is an all consuming pillar of fire.

Having sin within us when we stand before God will burn. Being washed clean of sins and protected by Christ Gods blood, we are protected by his Grace.

The real question is... will we stand with Christ God or will we attempt to stand on our own.

Forgive me.....

I agree with the last portion completely. The issue is will we stand with Christ.

The rest I take some issue with.

The Scriptures do not describe hell as being in the presence of God:

Mat 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
Mat 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.


While it uses symbolic language Revelation also points out a separation:

Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The wicked are seen as outside the city away from the presence of God.\


In Acts 2 Peter says that David must have been speaking of the Christ when he said that God would not leave him in Hades, because David "did not ascend to heaven." This seems to indicate a different location for hades and heaven as indeed, Jesus too said He had not yet ascended.

Act 2:25 For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
Act 2:26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
Act 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'
Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

 

[tall73]

Blame the medieval West for the concept of the heavenly escalator or the free-falling elevator for the trip to Hell.

I can't state enough how much I wish that people realized what you wrote.

Certainly they did complicate things

But I still see some of the same notions with regard to at least Hades in the biblical account.

Moreover, I see some verses that make it problematic to say that Hell is the presence of God, as listed above.

Some do see a reference to destruction by the brightness of Jesus coming in 2 Thess. 2:8, rendered thus by the KJV

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

However, the term here rendered brightness is the word where we get our epiphany...the revealing of or th eappearance of his coming might be a better rendering, just based on the usage that I found of this term in the NT.

 

[juggernaut]

oops

 

[juggernaut]

This I cannot agree totally with:

Heaven and Hell are one and the same PLACE.

ETERNITY. Time means nothing to our creator

Yes I agree with heaven and hell being eternal....but for it being "one and the same" place....nay, I cannot agree.

Heaven and Hell are NOT the same place rather they are the same dimension.
The Bible says that when Lucifer was rejected from Gods holy presence, he was thrown down (Isaiah 14:12-15) to the earth.
Could it be possible that the middle of the earth is hell? Just a thought.
I heard that scientists sent a probe deep into the earth (further than man could go) and recieved screams of torture and terror. Whereas astronauts have heard the singing of angels out in space.

However the Bible says that those who burn in hell will be in the sight of God, but they will not have a sight of God. Eternally seperated.

2 Thess 1:8-9
He will come with his mighty angels, 8in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don't know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

Revelations 14:9-11
9Then a third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or the hand 10must drink the wine of God's wrath. It is poured out undiluted into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11The smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.

The sinner on the cross that was with Jesus. I think it was Jesus' way of showing us that even a sinner on his death bed who is truely repentant can have eternal life. Salvation is for all, it is by faith not by works that we are saved.

And as for Paul saying Jesus went into Hell and preached to those that were captives there, what is time in eternity?
Jesus won the battle over death, prophecied His own death and resurrection and fulfilled them, He is the messiah, the saviour of all, even to the repentant sinner on the cross beside Him.

Praise be to Jesus Christ, the saviour of all who believe and are repentant.

 

[Willtor]

Welcome to the forums, Juggernaut. I hope you enjoy CF.

This I cannot agree totally with:


Yes I agree with heaven and hell being eternal....but for it being the same place....nay, I cannot agree.

Heaven and Hell are NOT the same place rather they are the same dimension.
The Bible says that when Lucifer was rejected from Gods holy presence, he was thrown down (Isaiah 14:12-15) to the earth.
Could it be possible that the middle of the earth is hell? Just a thought.
I heard that scientists sent a probe deep into the earth (further than man could go) and recieved screams of torture and terror. Whereas astronauts have heard the singing of angels out in space.

Anyways I'm just going off on a tangent here.

This is a common falsehood. This notion of people hearing people in Hell by sending a probe into the Earth and astronauts hearing angels singing is an urban legend. Unfortunately, it is dangerous because it is so easily propagated and equally easily refuted and potentially presents Christianity in a poor light.

The use of "Earth" and "Heaven" in Scripture is different than it is commonly used, today. The authors didn't imagine a round Earth as you've suggested. Their notion was very much that the Earth was flat, immovable, and had a solid dome (like an upside down bowl) on top of it. The imagery has to be read in that context, not through a lens of modern cosmology.