Learn why universalism is popular, but fatally flawed

SeventhFisherofMen

You cannot fool Jesus
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2013
3,401
1,619
32
CA
✟401,083.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
US-Republican
you need to read the writings of many of the early church fathers many believed that the word translated as eternal in the English and Latin translations should read of the age or pertaining to the age , it has an end it is not eternal ,
Well when a statement like this clearly contradicts what Jesus describes as "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Matthew 9:44

You tell me who i should believe more, Jesus Himself or some person who wrote something after the Bible was written. If i followed that line of thinking people could just be Muslim and follow muhamad's writings, he wrote something after the Bible was written as well, but both he and those people you quoted are wrong and dare i say lying when they speak against what Jesus said
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
622
262
64
Tennessee
✟37,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Can you back any of this up with quotes from 2 or 3 ECF who say "the word translated as eternal in the English and Latin translations should read of the age or pertaining to the age, it has an end it is not eternal"? An adjective describes it has neither beginning nor end.
The adjective "aionios" can NEVER be translated as the noun "age!" There is no word or combination of words in English which can make an adjective a noun.
Here is how Origen defines "aionios" in John 4:14

Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] Commentary on the Book of John
(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 59–60). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.
Aionios life given by Jesus John 4:14 "never perishes 2x," "remains,""not taken away,""not consumed."
Augustine- " There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" St. Jerome 331-420 " In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one" Gregory of Nyssa 335-390 " For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body" Theodore of Mepsuestia 350-428 " The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace" Clement of Alexandria " We can set no limit to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life" Olnmpiodorus 550 " Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing, But we say tht the soul is punished for aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon ." Peter Chrysologus 435 " That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, " You will never get out until you have paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the dept." St Jerome " I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures" Didymus the Blind " Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in his fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all" These are a few but my typing is not very fast if by chance you want to read more you can go to ( forbiddentheology.com) look for articles and go to Quotes by Early Church Fathers on universalism . I know most of the time you seem to blow off or dismiss those of us from UR but if you really want to know more go take a look not that you might agree but so you can understand what we are talking about.
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
622
262
64
Tennessee
✟37,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well when a statement like this clearly contradicts what Jesus describes as "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Matthew 9:44

You tell me who i should believe more, Jesus Himself or some person who wrote something after the Bible was written. If i followed that line of thinking people could just be Muslim and follow muhamad's writings, he wrote something after the Bible was written as well, but both he and those people you quoted are wrong and dare i say lying when they speak against what Jesus said
the reason you look at what the early church fathers said is because they were from the culture and language that the new testament was written to and they give us insight to how it was received by them and how they understand what the authors of the New Testament were saying. We read a English Bible that has been translated from another language and from an eastern mindset and we think that we know what the meaning is. You gave the perfect example the quote you gave about worms and fire was not a literal thing but was a common expression that at that time the average Jew would know he was talking about the local dump and no Jew would want his body to be disposed in such a place.
 
Upvote 0

SeventhFisherofMen

You cannot fool Jesus
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Jan 9, 2013
3,401
1,619
32
CA
✟401,083.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
US-Republican
the reason you look at what the early church fathers said is because they were from the culture and language that the new testament was written to and they give us insight to how it was received by them and how they understand what the authors of the New Testament were saying. We read a English Bible that has been translated from another language and from an eastern mindset and we think that we know what the meaning is. You gave the perfect example the quote you gave about worms and fire was not a literal thing but was a common expression that at that time the average Jew would know he was talking about the local dump and no Jew would want his body to be disposed in such a place.
this teaching about a local dump is a Jehovah's Witness teaching and is not Biblical.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Augustine- " There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" St. Jerome 331-420 " In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one" Gregory of Nyssa 335-390 " For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body" Theodore of Mepsuestia 350-428 " The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace" Clement of Alexandria " We can set no limit to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life" Olnmpiodorus 550 " Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing, But we say tht the soul is punished for aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon ." Peter Chrysologus 435 " That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, " You will never get out until you have paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the dept." St Jerome " I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures" Didymus the Blind " Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in his fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all" These are a few but my typing is not very fast if by chance you want to read more you can go to ( forbiddentheology.com) look for articles and go to Quotes by Early Church Fathers on universalism . I know most of the time you seem to blow off or dismiss those of us from UR but if you really want to know more go take a look not that you might agree but so you can understand what we are talking about.
Meaningless copy/paste from some UR website. A proper citation has the name of the author, chapter and any other division notation, e.g. paragraph number.
Augustine was in north Africa his knowledge would be limited to what he could personally observe in his local community and church. And nothing of any other part of the world. If he read something somewhere then we need the identification of that source. I just did a quick word search in Clement, I could not find the above "quote." strike 1.
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
622
262
64
Tennessee
✟37,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Meaningless copy/paste from some UR website. A proper citation has the name of the author, chapter and any other division notation, e.g. paragraph number.
Augustine was in north Africa his knowledge would be limited to what he could personally observe in his local community and church. And nothing of any other part of the world. If he read something somewhere then we need the identification of that source. I just did a quick word search in Clement, I could not find the above "quote." strike 1.
I figured you would say that , is there anything you won’t do to stay in your man made box? But I wrote that for the people who are honestly searching out who God is and maybe they have been feed some things that are not true. Not everyone knows God so well that no one can teach them anything. Some of us are still on the journey to understand this infinite God with our finite mind. If we all would get out of the worlds system and honestly search out God and his nature and character even someone as smart as you could learn more about this infinite God who’s love has not boundaries.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I figured you would say that , is there anything you won’t do to stay in your man made box? But I wrote that for the people who are honestly searching out who God is and maybe they have been feed some things that are not true. Not everyone knows God so well that no one can teach them anything. Some of us are still on the journey to understand this infinite God with our finite mind. If we all would get out of the worlds system and honestly search out God and his nature and character even someone as smart as you could learn more about this infinite God who’s love has not boundaries.
Augustine in North Africa would not have had any knowledge of how widespread universal reconciliation was in Egypt, Rome [Italy], Corinth [Greece], Ephesus [Asia/Turkey], Samaria, Babylon etc. And he did NOT say "a great majority" as one "scholar" claimed, he said "indeed very many."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Then what’s your definition of when Jesus says “ Hinnom’s Vale of fire”
Where? Jesus is quoted as saying "gehenna" 16 times but never the Hebrew "hinnom."
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
the reason you look at what the early church fathers said is because they were from the culture and language that the new testament was written to and they give us insight to how it was received by them and how they understand what the authors of the New Testament were saying. We read a English Bible that has been translated from another language and from an eastern mindset and we think that we know what the meaning is. You gave the perfect example the quote you gave about worms and fire was not a literal thing but was a common expression that at that time the average Jew would know he was talking about the local dump and no Jew would want his body to be disposed in such a place.
Re: Gehenna. There is a prevalent internet rumor which is often quoted in this forum, which is, "When Jesus spoke about 'the fires of Gehenna,' He was [supposedly] talking about an ever burning trash dump outside Jerusalem in the valley of Ge Hinnom where trash and bodies were [supposedly] constantly burning." I hate to burst that bubble but it never happened. There was a trash dump in a valley outside Jerusalem but it was not the valley of Ge Hinnom/Gehenna it was the next valley over the Kidron valley. Here is some real archaeological evidence for that.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
= = = =
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage
The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com
= = = = = = =
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,352
10,607
Georgia
✟912,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Universalism (pronounced yu-ni-VER-sul-iz-um) is a doctrine that teaches all people will be saved. Other names for this doctrine are universal restoration, universal reconciliation, universal restitution, and universal salvation.


The main argument for universalism is that a good and loving God would not condemn people
A few questions.
1. If it is really popular - how many Christian denominations hold to it.?
2. If it is to be debunked/refuted -- how else can that be done - other than sola scriptura since any other basis does not use "common ground" that all Christians can affirm as a "body of truth"?
Some universalists believe that after a certain cleansing period, God will free the inhabitants of hell and reconcile them to himself.
Ok so it is easy to see that if someone actually believed that - they would end up with universalism - where all people end up in heaven.

Others say that after death, people will have another opportunity to choose God.
Which I agree is not correct - since the Bible says it is appointed unto humans once to die -- and then judgment (rather and then -- more chances). But even so - "another opportunity" only gives people "opportunity" it does not say that all will change their mind and accept the Gospel so I don't know how that becomes universalism.
Universalism applies passages like Acts 3:21 and Colossians 1:20 to mean that God intends to restore all things to their original state of purity through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:18; Hebrews 2:9), so that in the end everyone will be brought into a right relationship with God (1 Corinthians 15:24–28).
ok so they are pouring some degree of inference + "lack of context" to get to their desired teaching. Thanks for pointing that out.
But such a view runs counter to the teaching of the Bible that "all who call upon the name of the Lord" will be united to Christ and eternally saved, not all people in general.


Jesus Christ taught that those who reject him as Savior will spend eternity in hell after they die:I
1. I do see the "will go to hell" or "Will be cast into hell" parts of those texts - but I don't see the "spend eternity in" part that you suggest.

2. You are using "sola scriptura testing" to prove the universalist's view to be in error. I applaud you for doing so - but I though that I saw a few Catholic posts on this board opposing that method.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,352
10,607
Georgia
✟912,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Curious. Why does this get your knickers in such a knot? Don't tell me because your church teaches it. Tell me YOUR reasons why you don't like it, don't want all people saved, and find it hard to believe.
I thought he already did that in the OP

So for example - here


Jesus Christ taught that those who reject him as Savior will spend eternity in hell after they die:
Which at the very least shows that some do get cast into hell instead of inheriting eternal life

He could have added Rom 2:4-16, Matt 7:15-23
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A few questions.
1. If it is really popular - how many Christian denominations hold to it.?
2. If it is to be debunked/refuted -- how else can that be done - other than sola scriptura since any other basis does not use "common ground" that all Christians can affirm as a "body of truth"?
Ok so it is easy to see that if someone actually believed that - they would end up with universalism - where all people end up in heaven.
Which I agree is not correct - since the Bible says it is appointed unto humans once to die -- and then judgment (rather and then -- more chances). But even so - "another opportunity" only gives people "opportunity" it does not say that all will change their mind and accept the Gospel so I don't know how that becomes universalism.
ok so they are pouring some degree of inference + "lack of context" to get to their desired teaching. Thanks for pointing that out.
1. I do see the "will go to hell" or "Will be cast into hell" parts of those texts - but I don't see the "spend eternity in" part that you suggest.
2. You are using "sola scriptura testing" to prove the universalist's view to be in error. I applaud you for doing so - but I though that I saw a few Catholic posts on this board opposing that method.
"but I don't see the "spend eternity in" part that you suggest." That's easy.
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]
…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T.
2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.
A few more relevant vss. to consider.
Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28.
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
622
262
64
Tennessee
✟37,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Re: Gehenna. There is a prevalent internet rumor which is often quoted in this forum, which is, "When Jesus spoke about 'the fires of Gehenna,' He was [supposedly] talking about an ever burning trash dump outside Jerusalem in the valley of Ge Hinnom where trash and bodies were [supposedly] constantly burning." I hate to burst that bubble but it never happened. There was a trash dump in a valley outside Jerusalem but it was not the valley of Ge Hinnom/Gehenna it was the next valley over the Kidron valley. Here is some real archaeological evidence for that.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

= = = =
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),

The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.

…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.

...

Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.




= = = = = = =
ok did some research about valley of Hinnom and you are correct that it was not a city dump, it was much worse it was a place that some Jews sacrificed their children to the pagan god tophat . but it is still just a physical place that had a very bad connotation and we could visit it today, its not some underworld place of eternal suffering.
 
Upvote 0

Jeff Saunders

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2022
622
262
64
Tennessee
✟37,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well when a statement like this clearly contradicts what Jesus describes as "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Matthew 9:44

You tell me who i should believe more, Jesus Himself or some person who wrote something after the Bible was written. If i followed that line of thinking people could just be Muslim and follow muhamad's writings, he wrote something after the Bible was written as well, but both he and those people you quoted are wrong and dare i say lying when they speak against what Jesus said
why do you believe that the worms and fire are literal in Matt but in Psalm 22 God says of Jesus that he was a worm but I will bet you don't think Jesus was a worm?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,352
10,607
Georgia
✟912,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
"but I don't see the "spend eternity in" part that you suggest." That's easy.
EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]
Ok so we can see how "eternal life" is "spending eternity" in life.

A lot of people will agree that hell, the second death, where one is "destroyed both body and soul" Matt 10:28 - is a form of punishment.

But as we see in Jude 1 and in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" is not the kind of "punishment" that is always incomplete.

But punishment/hell/death (the second death Rev 20) is not a "spend eternity doing something" kind of statement. So if you have a "spend eternity in hell" text it would be nice to see one.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ok so we can see how "eternal life" is "spending eternity" in life.
A lot of people will agree that hell, the second death, where one is "destroyed both body and soul" Matt 10:28 - is a form of punishment.
But as we see in Jude 1 and in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" is not the kind of "punishment" that is always incomplete.
But punishment/hell/death (the second death Rev 20) is not a "spend eternity doing something" kind of stateme
nt. So if you have a "spend eternity in hell" text it would be nice to see one.
Jesus is quoted as saying death 17 or 18 times. When Jesus meant death, He said death, NOT punishment. While the lake of fire is called "the second death" twice Rev 20:14, 21:8 it is never stated than anything/anyone is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. One vs. says just the opposite.
Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​
Three beings, one the false prophet is a person, are thrown in to the LOF but they don't die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Also, I have read the end of the book.
Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​
The last book the last chapter, outside the new Jerusalem, no more death, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:" The End, roll end credits, fade to black.
 
Upvote 0